List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

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red2cwm
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List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by red2cwm »

Hey guys. I am going to be chairing my Pack's Pinewood Derby for the first time this coming January. My son's first time racing was last year. Our rules from last year were too loose in some areas and unenforceable in others. So I'm planning an overhaul. I'm going to start by figuring out which rules will NOT be in our rules. I have been pouring over these forums for the last month or so paying special attention to unenforceable rules at check-in that seem to only penalize honest participants. These rules often seem to pop up in threads that start with other subjects. I would like to compile a comprehensive list of rules that cannot be enforced at check-in. The following is what I have been able to glean from reading these forums and others. Please let me know if there are any rules that are missing or if I have included a rule that is somehow enforceable at check-in.

Rules that cannot be 100% enforced at check-in unless someone admits to it:


1. The wheels shall turn about the axle nails from the kit.
2. No internet bought BSA axles.
3. No non BSA axles. (unless axle slots must be used to check the nail point, or magnets?)
4. No axle groves.
5. The car shall roll on the wheels from the kit.
6. No wheels purchased from the internet. (matching mold numbers would be an indicator, however a minimum wheel weight could be established that would render purchasing ultra lightened wheels pointless)
7. Only dry lubricant is permitted.
8. Must use the official Pinewood Derby block/no pre-cut bodies.
9. No pre-built cars from eBay, websites, etc... (unless they violate the minimum wheel weight requirements
10. No lathes. (not a rule that I care about, but for the sake of a complete list...)
11. The car must have been made during this Scouting year. (I would still include this one in the rules since in most cases, cheating here would not give you an advantage unless you were one of the previous years' winners. In that case, the car would most likely be recognized.)
Last edited by red2cwm on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by Speedster »

I think an ultra lightened wheel is rather obvious so that could be enforced. Revell is supplying pre cut cars and they have the official BSA seal on them. I think our District is going to allow them since they're going to make a lot of money for the Boy Scouts. I don't know yet if other pre cut cars will be allowed or how you could even tell. We have a huge family owned operation in this area and it includes 3 retail stores. Each year there is one day all three stores will cut out a pinewood derby car, free of charge, and give you sandpaper to sand it down. I'm not sure the difference between that and a pre-cut car. My heart goes out to the scout who has no one to help him build a car from the block. Since the Derby is about the scout I think I would allow pre cut cars if not getting one meant he was not going to be able to race. Maybe that is the feeling of the Chief Executives who teamed up with Revell. Are other districts allowing Revell's cars?
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by FatSebastian »

:welcome: red2cwm, and good luck as Derby Chair!

BSA rules from the Cub Scout Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Guidebook (BSA No. 33721) that are unenforceable:
The car must have been made during the current year (the year in which the derby is held).
Axles, wheels, and body wood shall be as provided in the kit.
Here are similar Wotamalo District Pinewood Derby Rules that are arguably unenforceable:
Race cars shall be constructed for this event from the parts contained in the Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit... as sold by the Scout Service Center.
The car shall roll on the wheels from the kit.
The wheels shall turn about the axle nails from the kit.
red2cwm wrote:...unenforceable rules at check-in that seem to only penalize honest participants...
There is also a difference between "unenforceable " and "unenforced"; some inspectors may not enforce some enforceable rules, which may be no less fair. And any rule that includes qualified language of subjectively determined conditions, e.g., "The axle dimensions may not be changed substantially" or "Wheel treatment may not result in substantial removal of mass" is enforceable to a degree that might vary.
red2cwm wrote:I'm going to start by figuring which rules will NOT be in our rules.
A serious question: Why do you think most Derby rules sets contain some "unenforceable" rules? (From where does the BSA start?)
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by red2cwm »

FS, I have added condensed versions of the rules you listed to the OP.
FatSebastian wrote:A serious question: Why do you think most Derby rules sets contain some "unenforceable" rules? (From where does the BSA start?)
I think that well intentioned, but not highly logical people would like to eliminate specific speed modifications that they feel are not sporting, fair, or within the common person's abilities or price range. They are usually more focused on an ideological outcome versus a realistic outcome. The reality of the situation is that an unenforceable rule will ALWAYS give the advantage to a person or team that is willing to cheat while hindering honest competitors.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by pack529holycross »

I respectfully disagree with the premise for your list. The reason for showing rules is to give the builders of PWD cars the guidelines and parameters within which to design and construct their cars. Rules are to be included within the published rules that allow builders to know what IS and IS NOT permitted, even if violating the rule would be undetectable at inspection. The logic you have employed is as follows:

“if we cannot check for compliance, then there cannot be a rule regarding that issue.”

I personally would say that rules are included for the benefit of the builder, and not for the benefit of the inspector. We are on the honor system, and if someone chooses to disregard the listed specifications, knowing that their deviations will not be detected by the Inspectors, then that person (i.e. "father") has to also deviate without his son knowing, or answering to the scout saying "dad - it says we cannot do that".

This is a character component of this project --- learning to do the right thing without being monitored or policed --- and is the cornerstone of why participation in Pinewood Derby is one of the few, if not the only, "competition" within Scouting. What you do when no one is looking is the foundation of your character as a person, and when you explain in detail rules that can "mostly" be "self enforced", you create a requirement of "self policing", and that helps to create a morale center for the participants.

I include things that are verbally reinforced as rules directly to the scouts, as you can have your own police force within each "secret workshop". Can you head off every single violation? of course not, but winning HONESTLY vs. winning DISHONESTLY is also yet another important life lesson which this project gives us the opportunity to demonstrate in real life.

http://seminolesprings.com/district/wp- ... 072011.pdf" target="_blank

here is the link to last years evolution of the event guide i use to do the council and district races, and then distribute versions to the packs so that they may choose to keep all the rules consistent. We also have a meeting each year to suggest modifications and changes. You should consider finding the district rules and council rules and make every attempt to be as close to that rule set as possible, avoiding any situations where a "legal" car at the Pack Races is considered "illegal" at any other level.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by FatSebastian »

red2cwm wrote:I think that well intentioned, but not highly logical people... are usually more focused on an ideological outcome versus a realistic outcome.
Thanks very much for your frank reply, red2cwm. Are you suggesting that it is not logical to focus on ideology in Cub Scouting?

Cub Scout Leaders formulating local rules do well to also refer to The Purposes of Cub Scouting (found in the Cub Scout Leader How-To book):
Families, leaders, and organizations work together to achieve the 10 purposes of Cub Scouting:
1. Character Development
2. Spiritual Growth
3. Good Citizenship
4. Sportsmanship and Fitness
5. Family Understanding
6. Respectful Relationships
7. Personal Achievement
8. Friendly Service
9. Fun and Adventure
10. Preparation for Boy Scouts
Character development and spiritual growth rank highest on this list. In light of Nicholas' response, the existence of unenforceable rules does not conflict with, and may enhance, the purposes of Cub Scouting.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by Darin McGrew »

FWIW, most of my Derby Rules page is about drafting rules, not about the rules themselves. (Although I should probably revise it the next time I update my web site, since I've refined my views through Derby Talk discussions over the past few years.)

I agree with the others who said that there is a place for unenforceable rules. Rules about building a new car each year or using the block in the kit for the car's body are essentially unenforceable (barring extra effort from the organizers, like issuing marked blocks and requiring the marks to remain visible), but they set everyone's expectations.

I don't have many rules to contribute to your collection though, since our rules (see link above) are pretty minimalistic. We've even raced cars that exceeded the dimensions given in our rules, since the dimensions are given only to clarify the actual rule: "All cars must fit our track and must not interfere with the start gate, the finish gate, or any other cars." We verified that the cars didn't interfere with the start gate, the finish gate, or any other cars, and then let them race.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by whodathunkit »

list of unenforceable rules at check-in..

#1. Eliminateing the common reason's of why SOME single parent kids don't participate in your organizations race.
#2. Or the drop out rate of younger familys with..
(no wood working tools at home or in the tool box to cut the car out useing the Official BSA kit.)

You can not make the kids or parents race.. when they can not participate with the rules for makeing the car out of official pinewood derby kit. ( because they lack the tools or skills to do so.)
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by Stan Pope »

FatSebastian wrote:...
Here are similar Wotamalo District Pinewood Derby Rules that are arguably unenforceable:
Race cars shall be constructed for this event from the parts contained in the Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit... as sold by the Scout Service Center.
The car shall roll on the wheels from the kit.
The wheels shall turn about the axle nails from the kit.
Wotamalo Rules (in the original) qualify this to mean "of the type in the Kit", which is much more enforceable. The WIKI sources an old version.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by red2cwm »

FatSebastian wrote:Are you suggesting that it is not logical to focus on ideology in Cub Scouting?
No. I'm saying that it is not logical to focus on ideology when it comes to competitions where there are winners and losers, in this case, the Pinewood Derby. If we're talking about What we're learning on camp-outs, at meetings, on go-see-its, how we treat each other, working as a team, etc, then yes ideology would be one of the things on which I would focus.
pack529holycross wrote:I personally would say that rules are included for the benefit of the builder, and not for the benefit of the inspector.
I would say that rules are included as guideline for the builder and as a way to protect all of the honest participants.
pack529holycross wrote:We are on the honor system...This is a character component of this project --- learning to do the right thing without being monitored or policed...What you do when no one is looking is the foundation of your character as a person...
I feel that there is a time and a place for everything. My goal for 8 out of the 9 Scouting months is to find interesting ways to engage the Scouts in my Den while teaching the 10 purposes of Cub Scouting. But when it comes to choosing between doing my best to protect honest competitors from those that would cheat or doing my best to teach lessons about following unenforceable rules, I'm going to (to the best of my ability) choose to protect the honest competitors.
FatSebastian wrote:Character development and spiritual growth rank highest on this list. In light of Nicholas' response, the existence of unenforceable rules does not conflict with, and may enhance, the purposes of Cub Scouting.
If I were simply dealing with the Scouts, I would wholeheartedly agree with both of you. However in the case of racers that would be willing to break unenforceable rules, I would be dealing with parents whose level of character development was set long ago. I fully understand that while I do have some influence in the character development of the Scouts in my Den and Pack, I have hardly any influence in the character development of the parents. So again I'm back to protecting the honest competitors.
pack529holycross wrote:You should consider finding the district rules and council rules and make every attempt to be as close to that rule set as possible, avoiding any situations where a "legal" car at the Pack Races is considered "illegal" at any other level.
I agree here also. However, our district and council do not have races at this time. I will be working on correcting this at least at the district level soon.
Darin McGrew wrote:I agree with the others who said that there is a place for unenforceable rules. Rules about building a new car each year or using the block in the kit for the car's body are essentially unenforceable...but they set everyone's expectations.
I see your point here and am highly considering the "new car" rule and the "no prebuilt cars" rule to set expectations.
whodathunkit wrote:#1. Eliminateing the common reason's of why SOME single parent kids don't participate in your organizations race.
#2. Or the drop out rate of younger familys with..
(no wood working tools at home or in the tool box to cut the car out useing the Official BSA kit.)
And these are some of the reasons why I want to drop the "using the block from the kit" rule and replace it with a suggestion of using the block with an offer of help and or a workshop night(s). (I'm still sorting this part out.)
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by FatSebastian »

red2cwm wrote:I'm saying that it is not logical to focus on ideology when it comes to competitions where there are winners and losers...
An ideology is a set of ideas that constitute one's goals, expectations, and actions. It is a comprehensive vision, a way of looking at things. I'm not sure it is possible to escape ideology in competition or Cub Scouting; rather, we choose, explicitly or implicitly, what ideologies will be followed. Never allowing honest participants to be disadvantaged, assuming that there will always be cheaters, trying not to "focus on ideology when it comes to competitions," etc., are arguably ideologies themselves.

The Purposes of Cub Scouting present an ideology. Some people opine that the highly competitive nature of Pinewood Derby is not entirely consistent with The Purposes of Cub Scouting and for that reason there are districts and councils that shun derbies.
red2cwm wrote:
Darin McGrew wrote:Rules about building a new car each year or using the block in the kit for the car's body are essentially unenforceable...but they set everyone's expectations.
I see your point here and am highly considering the "new car" rule and the "no prebuilt cars" rule to set expectations.
This appears to be a good example where ideology (expectations) suggests the introduction of an unenforceable rule.

With all that has been said, I applaud red2cwm's effort to cull difficult rules that are hard to enforce and that may tempt cheaters. Of course some rules (like the recycling of cars) may not be enforceable, but are there to project an ideology that is (hopefully) consistent with Scouting ideals and the goals of the activity.

To repeat something said before, in the Scouting units that we have been involved with over the years, there has always been a significant amount of trust that people will follow the rules provided, and the inspections and rules have tended to always reflect that. Specifically, inspections mainly exist to catch mistakes, not cheaters, and passing inspection thereby honors kids who "did their best" by correctly reading, understanding, and following the rules and following their project to completion, regardless of how their cars come out in the final standings.
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by whodathunkit »

FatSebastian wrote: To repeat something said before, in the Scouting units that we have been involved with over the years, there has always been a significant amount of trust that people will follow the rules provided, and the inspections and rules have tended to always reflect that. Specifically, inspections mainly exist to catch mistakes, not cheaters, and passing inspection thereby honors kids who "did their best" by correctly reading, understanding, and following the rules and following their project to completion, regardless of how their cars come out in the final standings.
FS, not to go threw the extrems here.. just to simply ask a question,that must be a mistake.
In the official grand prix pinewood derby kit no.17006 the rules and instructions guide sheet
there is no hight restriction seen.
And in the grand prix pwd guidebook #33721A same holds true not seen.
Now in the Wotamalo District pwd rules a hight restriction is given as not over 3" maximum height.
Same holds true in the Fox Chapel books a maximum height restriction is seen .
Could this arguably be unenforceable also even if the pack rules guide sheet douse not provide a
maximum hight restriction.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by Stan Pope »

whodathunkit wrote: In the official grand prix pinewood derby kit no.17006 the rules and instructions guide sheet
there is no hight restriction seen.
And in the grand prix pwd guidebook #33721A same holds true not seen.
Now in the Wotamalo District pwd rules a hight restriction is given as not over 3" maximum height.
A height restriction is easy to enforce with a simple inspection gage.

As to whether it is reasonable to specify a rule that is not included in the RITB (Rules in the Box) ... one or both (I don't recall which) of the BSA sources instruct the local group to construct a rule set and distribute it to competitors. Prior to sending rules to the packs so that they can incorporate them into their competitions (if they desire), we do not know what the specifics of our district race tracks will be. So, we specify a car height limit that is reasonable for builders and that will not eliminate too many tracks for use in district races. (Last year we "borrowed" 8 tracks for our district derby!
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by whodathunkit »

Thank you Stan,

You've been doing this event for alot of years now.
So you probably know that in all the BSA pwd car kits made over the years,
that there has never been a maximum hight restriction seen or given in the RITB, rules in the box.

And that the only hight restrictions given or seen in publications.
Was the 1" minimum seen on the front of the car drawing By Don Murphy.
In the Oct, 1954 Boy's Life article & in the Summer 1955 Cub Scout program quarterly.

And that the only hight restrctions.. that I know of as far as rules in the box.
Was in the Big Rig 18 wheeler kits by Beta Crafts-Inc, as a 4 1/2" Maximum hight.

Just a little something vintage I'd like to share about the kits rules in the box.
Whoda.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: List of Unenforceable Rules at Check-In

Post by SirStorm »

My take one the rules are this; if you are you going to race on multiple tracks then you got to match the rules to the series. You don't have a choice. If you are racing your own stand alone race, then make a set of rules that are as simple and straightforward as possible. Spelling out minutiae confuses things.

In both cases, you can verbally explain at any age level the reasons behind the existence of said rule. That is where the lesson is learned.

Cheaters will still cheat, but the majority of your non-compliances will be eliminated when they understand the background underlying reasons for the rule.

One more way to increase compliance is with group build sessions. The pooling of skill and tools and access to the rule making body is priceless.
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