Need rules for for District race

[Sylvar]

Ok, gang....We talk alot about having understandable rules. Now I need some. We ran "The rules in the box" last year. As we all know those are pretty unclear. I want to put together a rule set to present to the District for approval. Looks like I am the Derby Chair this year, so I already have one vote for whatever rule set I come up with. I was talking with my DE the other day about rules in general. He is very fond of the "Must use the slots in the block" rule. I am not. I told him about this site, so Shawn if you are reading this brace yourself for some rules changes .

Any Ideas?

Length, width, weight are easy.

What about wheels? Easy to see if they are reshaped, but mass removal is trickier

Axles? Other than looking for the nails I am not sure what you do here.

Some things that are missing from the "Box" rules:

Front of car must not extend past starting pin

No mention of "Loose materials"

Even though it shouldn't need to be in the rules I feel compelled to add "NO MERCURY!"



Eagerly awaiting your responses!
Shane

[davekelly]

You might want to put as Rule #1 that the boy should be the one making the car with adult supervision and assistance where required.

Wheelbase: Stock wheelbase or shorter/longer allowed?

Lubrication: Graphite only? Or anything that is dry to the touch on race day?

I like the idea of the front of the car must not extend past starting pin. Although rather obvious we did have a problem once with a car that had a v cut out in the front. Put the car about 1/2 inch in front of the others. No cheating was intended, the boy just thought it was a really cool design.

You might want to get in touch with the various packs in your district and get a copy of their rules. If every Pack, for instance, has used a "stock wheelbase" rule for years, you might want to have the same rule at the districts.

Since you've started early in the year, perhaps you could attend a district roundtable and present your vision to the pack leaders. Get in touch with them first and ask that they bring their rules to you then or mail to you in advance. Although it probably won't happen, things could be so much easier if the Packs and the District use identical rules.

One thing that might work is to present the old rules and point out the problems in them (ie: vague, things not covered etc etc). Then present your suggested changes. The next roundtable could then be used to finalize the rules.

I do think the final rule should be "Do your best and have fun!"

[Sylvar]

We had one last year that extended a good 3 inches past the start pin. As in your case, it was not an attempt to cheat just a cool design.

As for Wheel base, I told the DE that I don't think it should be mentioned in the rules. Some boys will place the wheels for speed, others for looks, and most will still use the slots. Yes, extended wheelbase helps a car get faster times, but "use the slots" limits creativity. I had a car that I made as a scout that was a UK wildcat (I am from central Kentucky). The cat was in a crouched position with one paw up like it was swatting something. I had a wheel mounted at each paw. No two wheels were directly across from each other and the one on the raised paw was an inch off the track. I would not have been allowed to do that if I had been forced to use the slots

[Sylvar]

I have been compiling some rules by looking at what others are doing. I saw this in the rules for the Allohak council race.

All participants in the council’s finals will have their cars drilled, glued and mounted to a trophy after the council's finals at the Mall.

They will be required to bring these trophies to the 2005 Derby.

That is just a bit too hardcore for me ...couldn't they just take pictures?

[Darin McGrew]

Front of car must not extend past starting pin

If the finish gate sensor is located in the same spot on the track as the starting pin, then the only real concern is with designs that extend over the top of the starting pin. We specify a maximum height of the front bumper, but frankly, what we used to have problems with were boat designs where the sloped bow rested against the very top of the starting pin. The problem there is that the car jumps the gun very easily.

No mention of "Loose materials"

We specify that all decorations and weights must be securely attached, which also covers wet paint.

Even though it shouldn't need to be in the rules I feel compelled to add "NO MERCURY!"

You're right. You shouldn't need it in the rules. But they have "no smoking" signs at gas stations, and still people light up, so...

You might want to put as Rule #1 that the boy should be the one making the car with adult supervision and assistance where required.

And how would you enforce this? I have no problem expressing this as an expectation, a program goal, etc., but unenforcable rules bug me.

[davekelly]

Darin,

Yes, you are right, there would be no way to enforce my recommended Rule #1 at the Pack/District level. But to say that the rule is unenforceable, I think, underestimates the basic honesty of the boys. If the rules are read to the boys at a Pack meeting, the boys receive a written copy of the rules, as well as the registration card that I wrote about on one of these threads which the boy signs, I believe the vast majority of our boys will not allow a parent/neighbor/ebay seller, whatever, totally construct his car. The boys will enforce this rule.

We've spent alot of time at our Pack Meetings, campfires etc. discussing things like the Cub/Boy Scout Oath/Promise/Motto/Slogan and what the words actually mean. We sing Scout Vespers at our campfires ("Have I kept my honor bright, can I guiltless sleep tonight?") and I think the majority of our boys pick up on those things (it is also very interesting to watch the parents' reactions when they realize that Scouting is about values, ethics, morals etc).

Given the chance, the boys will enforce recommended Rule #1.

Please don't take this as criticism. It's obvious from your posts that you and I have the same goals as it pertains to teaching the boys. I do understand your point, but I think that having this rule will teach a life lesson. I can't imagine being a parent giving their son an ebay car or one made by Uncle Joe and saying "don't worry 'bout what the rule says."

[Sylvar]

If the finish gate sensor is located in the same spot on the track as the starting pin, then the only real concern is with designs that extend over the top of the starting pin

From a technical stand point I agree, but we also have to be aware of perception. We had a car last year with a VERY deep u in the front. It would have extended a good 3 inches if I had let them run the car as it was presented. While it would not have impacted how the electronic judge scored the race, it certainly would have impacted the perception of who won in a close race. The bystander isn't thinking about how the electronics work, he is thinking about which car is in front. That leads to questioning the accuracy of the electronics. I am trying to keep the rules very flexible for design, but there are going to be some cases where I need to be pragmatic

Shane

[Den_Leader]

We had one last year that extended a good 3 inches past the start pin

If I were to see such a car come up against one built by my son, I would start counting chickens. That is just too much PE being given up against an otherwise nearly perfect car IMHO. (Except for a really short track.) We typically remove the area behind the rear wheel and reattach it to the front of the car in order to increase the PE. (must use stock slots) I quiver at the thought of going the other way.

So if a boy has a design which would extend beyond the starting pin, then why not let him race it as long as timing issues were not present. I like the maximum bumper height rule also, which will be related to your start pin height.

[davekelly]

While a part of the car extending beyond the starting pin might not be a problem, there might be a problem of the finish line electronics. If a part of the car extends 3 inches in front of the starting pin, there is the possibility that the extension would trip the finish line electronics allowing that car to race 3 inches less in distance.

I also agree that there would be a perception problem among the fans.

[Sylvar]

That is just too much PE being given up against an otherwise nearly perfect car IMHO.

Another excellent point Den Leader. But just as I do not savor giving a lecture on how the electronics work, I don't want to have to give a physics lesson either. A lesson I am ill equiped to give I might add. The enemy is still perception. A poorly design car can still lose to this car and then I have to deal with Dad telling me the race was unfair because the other car was allowed a head start. I really would rather avoid that headache......I am sure there will be others that I can't avoid!

Shane

[Cory]

<snip>
I don't want to have to give a physics lesson either.
<snip>
The enemy is still perception.
<snip>

Good points and there were several other points that were made in a previous thread:

* On an S-shaped track, the physics might favor the indented nose car.
* Many tracks have laser activated starting gates. An indented nose car would block the beam early -- resulting in slower times for every car in that heat, and that affects the outcome if you're using elapsed time scoring. Or it might block the beam before the race even starts.
* An indentation with just the right width could incur friction with the starting pin. When the pin pulled down, it would pull the car forward.

As the organizer, these are not the sort of issues you want to face on Race Day. Easier just to say (and enforce) "no indented noses".

[Sylvar]

Ok...Looking right now at strictly the car construction rules here is what I have. I have borrowed liberally from others who have their rules on-line so if something looks familier to you....Thanks!

Rip these apart guy, I am looking for honest input and advice. Is there anything glaring? Have I missed important points? What seems vague?

1. Dimensions. Race cars may be no longer than 7 inches, nor wider than 2 3/4 (2.75) inches, nor taller than 3 inches, as determined by the official gages during race day inspection. (Underside clearance of at least 3/8 (0.375) inches and inside wheel to wheel clearance of at least 1 3/4 (1.75) inches is recommended, so that the car will run on the racetrack. Adequate clearance is the responsibility of the race car builder.)

2. Weight. The weight of the car shall not exceed 5 ounces as determined by the official scale during race day inspection

3. Material: Race cars shall be constructed for this event from the parts contained in the Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit . Materials from the kit may be supplemented but not replaced.

4. Wheels and Axles. Wheel treatment (hub and tread smoothing and polishing) may not result in substantial removal of mass nor in reducing the tread (track contact) width from the original kit wheels. Tread must maintain flat profile. The words "Official B.S.A. Made in U.S.A." and other lettering on the wheels shall remain intact and clearly visible to the inspector. Some of the original "tread marks" on the wheel face must be intact, i.e. apparent to the inspector. Wheel bearings, washers, and bushings are prohibited.

5. Lubricants: Lubricants must be dry at the time of inspection and racing. No Lubricants may be applied inside the building, or after car inspection.

6. Springing. The car shall not ride on any type of springs.

7. Details/ Attachments. Details such as the steering wheel, driver, decals, painting, and interior detail are permissible as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width, and weight specifications. All attachments must be securely fastened to the car.

8. Gravity Powered: The car must be freewheeling, with no starting devices. The race car may not be constructed or treated in such a way that the track's starting mechanism imparts momentum to the car. (For instance, this provision disqualifies cars with sticky substances on the front of the car and protrusions which may catch on the starting pin.)

9. Staging: The entire car must stage behind the starting pin

[Darin McGrew]

Looks good. Just a couple nits to pick...

Materials from the kit may be supplemented but not replaced.

Reading this with my "gimmick-rallye rules-lawyer" hat on, I have to ask whether removing some of the wood from the block and then adding decorations could be interpretted as "replacing" materials from the kit (i.e., replacing part of the block with decorations).

7. Details/ Attachments. Details such as the steering wheel, driver, decals, painting, and interior detail are permissible as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width, and weight specifications. All attachments must be securely fastened to the car.

I'd call this section "Decorations" or "Decorations & Weight" or "Decorations & Attachments".

And to me, "decorations and weights must be securely attached" or "decorations and other attachments must be securely fastened" more obviously applies to paint than "attachments must be securely fastened", because paint is clearly a decoration, but not so clearly an "attachment".

9. Staging: The entire car must stage behind the starting pin

"How do I make sure that the entire car will stage behind the starting pin? I've got this cool design that looks like a [mumble, mumble, mumble] and the leading edge needs to be [cough, cough] high. Will that work?"

Just specifying the height of the starting pin above the track surface should be enough. FWIW, we chose the height of our starting pin (which is actually a flat aluminum bar that is almost as wide as the center guide rail) so that the front bumper (leading edge) of the car could be as high as the top of the uncut block of wood and still work.

[gpraceman]

6. Springing. The car shall not ride on any type of springs.

I understand that we don't want any type of metal suspension system, but what about GrandPa's design? To me, this rule would preclude that.

You may also want to address the mercury issue by having a rule about no toxic substances.

[Sylvar]

Darin, Good Points!
For the first one what if the rule read like this:

Material: Race cars shall be constructed for this event using the Wood block, wheels, and axles contained in the Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit .

For the next one, I like your suggestion of "Decorations and Weights". What if the rule read like this:

Decorations and Weights. Details such as the steering wheel, driver, decals, painting, and interior detail are permissible as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width, and weight specifications. All All decorations and weights must be securely fastened to the car.

On your last point...I honestly hadn't considered that possible problem as our start pins are taller than the maximum allowable car height. I have no clue how tall the start pins will be on the tracks that will be used at the district race. They might all be different. Any suggestions on how this might be worded to avoid conflict?