Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

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Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by piazza »

I am the Trainer for Pack 304 in the California Inland Empire Council of the BSA. I have volunteered to head-up an event at our councils BSA 100th celebration on Sep 24-26, 2010. This event is a 250' Pinewood Derby Track that is to be entered in the Guinness Book of World Records. The event will be at the Hyundai Pavillion in San Bernardino, CA. I am inviting all interested BSA and Non-BSA Pine-heads to post your interest in attending and even competing in this event. This is going to be a rare occasion to run your cars on a 250' track. There will also be up to six 50' Pinewood Derby Tracks running at this event. There are 15,000 boys in our council so the entire event will be quit the scene for many BSA activities. Feel free to email with any info requests or such. I will keep this post updated in the coming weeks/months.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by Grubartez »

Do you have to be live at this event or will a person be able to mail in a car? I would love to run a car on a 250 ft track.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by pwrd by tungsten »

I would like to mail a car as well...
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by piazza »

Our District Pinewood Derby Rules will apply for this event. Therfore, all racers will be required to be present at the event with their car. Our current District rules follow:
Tahquitz District BSA Pinewood Derby Specifications and Rules (Version 8.17.09)

SPECIFICATIONS:
1. The Car Body must be made of Pinewood.
2. Only BSA class wheels and axles are to be used.
3. Body Width: Overall width of the car will not exceed 2¾ inches.
a. Note: The BSA kit is 1¾ inches wide and Pinewood may be added to the block to bring the car out to the maximum width.
4. Body Length: Overall length of the car will not exceed 7 inches.
a. Note: Pins of the starting gate of the derby track are about ¾ inch tall and are positioned in the center of the lane (so as to make contact with the middle of the front of the car). The car must be designed so that front-most part of the car will make contact with the starting gate/pin without any part of the car resting on, passing over the top of or protruding around the starting gate/pin. If this can not be met then the car will be run in reverse but the back end must meet the same requirements.
5. Body Height: Overall height of the car will not exceed 3⅛ inches.
6. Ground Clearance: When placed on a flat surface the entire bottom of the car must be at least ⅜ inch from the flat surface.
7. Weight: The weight of the car will not exceed 5 ounces.
a. Note: No loose materials of any kind are permitted in the car. The car may be hollowed out and/or built up to the maximum weight, provided it is securely built into or attached to the body.
8. Wheel Inside Clearance: The clearance between the inside edges of the wheels shall be 1 ¾ inches.
a. Note: Measured between the inside edges of the front or rear wheels
9. Wheel Base: The maximum wheel base will not exceed 4½ inches.
10. Wheels: Only BSA class wheels are to be used. There will be no modifications made to the outer edge (the part that reads “BSA PINEWOOD DERBY” in raised lettering), the outer center where the spokes are, or the tread surface that contacts the track (no grooves or gutters). Wheels must remain the same width, outer size and shape as the parts contained in the official Pinewood Derby kit. Wheel bearings, washers, and bushings are prohibited.
11. Axles: Only BSA class axles are to be used. Inserts for axle support are prohibited. Axles may be mounted to the car either in slots or drilled holes.
12. Lubrication: Wheel and Axle lubrication type is to be dry lube only.
a. Note: Applying dry lube to cars must be done before inspection. If the car needs some modification after failing initial inspection, dry lube may be applied/re-applied before re-inspection.
13. Suspension: Not Allowed. The car may not ride on any kind of springs.
14. Details and Attachments: Details such as steering wheel, driver, decals, painting, and interior details are permissible and encouraged as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width, and weight specifications.
a. Note: If a piece of a car comes off during a race the Scout (with adult assistance if required/requested) will be given a chance to reattach the piece, however the car will be weighed again. If the same piece comes off again the Scout will have to leave the piece off for the rest of the races the car runs in.
15. Propulsion: Not Allowed. The car must be freewheeling with no starting or stopping devices (i.e. rockets, springs, parachutes, etc.).
16. Lifespan: All cars must have been built within 12 months to the date of the District Finals in which they compete. In other words once a car has been in its first official District Race (be it at the Pack or Special Event level) it must be retired after 12 months pass or the District Finals (whichever comes first).
17. Inspection: Each car must pass inspection by the official event inspection committee before it may compete.
a. Note: The scales and measuring tools used during District approved Pack, District and Special Event race check-ins are the final say in a car meeting these specifications. The District approved Pinewood Derby Alignment Tool will be used to measure wheel base and car bottom clearance to meet the above specifications. If the car does not meet any of these specifications the Scout will be given an opportunity to meet the specifications.
b. The inspectors have the right to disqualify without prejudice those cars that clearly and obviously do not meet the specifications outlined above that are not able to be corrected at the time of weigh-in and impound.

RULES:
1. Weigh-in and Impound: Upon completion and passing the weigh-in and inspection at the time and date set by the event committee, all participating Pinewood cars must be placed in impound. After impound, only official participating adult leaders may have access to impounded cars.
a. Note: Once a car has passed inspection and is placed in impound, that cars eligibility may not be contested by anyone.
b. Note: If a car is checked out of impound while an event is in progress, the car is not allowed to race for the remainder of the event.
2. Entries: Each car may only be entered into one category of racing for each event. In other words, one scout/driver per car and one race category per event per car.
3. Pack level Racing Guidelines:
a. Larger Packs should conduct heats of Tigers, Wolves, Bears, and Webelos. The top three winners of each of those heats shall compete in the Pack Finals. The Top three in the Pack Finals are designated Pack Champions.
b. Smaller Packs may choose to have a combined Cub Scout Heat with the top three winners designated as Pack Champions.
c. Packs with no Track should contact the District Pinewood Derby Committee to arrange an inner-District Sponsored event.
d. Packs with Tracks and Facilities should make a best effort attempt to sponsor an inner-District Derby for Packs in need at least once per Scout season.
4. The Top Three Pack Champions: In order to qualify for the District Finals the Pack Committee Chair, Cubmaster, or assigned Adult Leader are required to impound the top three cars following their Pack’s Pinewood Derby race and continue to isolate those cars until the District Finals race.
a. Note: These cars may be entered into a Tahquitz District approved special event/race, but shall remain in the custody of the Pack adult leader as described above to which they belong.
b. Note: The Scout (with adult assistance if required/requested) will be allowed access to the car for the only purpose of re-applying approved wheel lube just before entering the event inspection and weigh-in.
c. If the car is attending a special District approved event prior to the District finals it will be placed back in the Pack impound at the conclusion of the event, no-matter the standing or outcome, in order to remain qualified for the District Finals
d. One adult leader from each pack is required to bring the three winning cars to the District Finals.
e. Both Scout and car must be present at the District Finals.
5. Open Class: Open class entries are not to be considered as Pack Champions. Open class will remain open to Scout Family members (or other Pack or District approved parties) with a car built to the District Specifications and Rules.
6. Outlaw Class: Outlaw class entries are not to be considered as Pack Champions. Outlaw class will be open to all parties with a car built to the District Specifications 1-8, 12-17 and Rules.
a. Note: Outlaw class cars are not required to adhere to specification 9-11 regarding wheels and axles.
7. Scout participation: Each car entered in a class to be considered for District Finals must have the Scout participate in the construction of the car at some level. The level of participation is to be determined by the parent/guardian of the Scout based on their abilities. The honor system is to be used for determining Scout participation.
8. These rules are a combination of the official Pinewood Derby rules and additions made by the District Pinewood Derby Committee. These rules prevail over the official Pinewood Derby rules alone.
9. All packs are required to comply with these rules to qualify for competition in the District Finals race.
10. Only the District Pinewood Derby Committee may make changes to these rules.
11. HAVE FUN! The sole purpose of these Specifications and Rules is to ensure that all participants in the Tahquitz District Pinewood Derbies have a fair and equal chance at competing and having a great time.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by gpraceman »

So, from those rules, it seems that racers can use the new BSA wheels, correct?

http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4946

So how high will the start gate be on this monster track?
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by piazza »

Yes! Our rules have been written to encourage, not discourage, the competitive spirit. IMO it is odd to insist on Scouts making a car only from the "Official" BSA Pinewood Derby Kit. We allow the use of all BSA categorized items (wheels, axles, etc.). The only thing we will not allow for the Scout races are modificatons to the OUTSIDE areas of the wheels. We also do not allow extended axle spacing as well. Other than that, everything is pretty much good to go!

I actually wrote these rules for our District since there was a lack of any written rules for our derbies. I volunteered at our District Finals a couple of months back, and after the trophies had been awarded an Adult questioned the "legality" of the 2nd place winner. His axles were spaced further than 4 1/2". But there was no written rule and my input was that since the car passed impound inspection, it was a legal car. But, I the rest of the committee gave in to the guy and revoked the trophy from the Scout and...of course the guy who questioned the car son was bumped up to 3rd place. The sort of happy ending is that the Scout was alowed to enter his car in the open class, and he took 3rd there behind his Father and Mother.

So, if anybody has input to these rules, I am open to all ideas, complaints and criticism. After all, IT IS ABOUT THE BOYS (at least in the BSA).
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by piazza »

To answer the question about the start gate...that is a good one.

I am still planning the whole layout of the track. I have contacted DerbMagic and Best Track. Robert Haase at DerbyMagic stated that he is interested in sponosoring the event including providing the track and lending his knowlege towards engineering the setup.

Mr. Haase states that he belives the start gate should be 30' high. But that could cause some safety issues unless we could aquire the proper scafolding and staging to facilitate that height.

My idea has been to set the start gate at a standard height and have the straight section on a 2-3% down grade.

While I am a general contractor, I don't claim to be capable of planning the track layout without proper time to test it (which we probably wont get).

I am open to all ideas though.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by gpraceman »

piazza wrote:The only thing we will not allow for the Scout races are modificatons to the OUTSIDE areas of the wheels.
So, you will be prohibiting removing the "stepped" portion of the outer hub on the new wheels? Some people might want to do that to reduce the diameter of contact between the wheel and the axle head, like the old wheels do.
piazza wrote:I actually wrote these rules for our District since there was a lack of any written rules for our derbies. I volunteered at our District Finals a couple of months back, and after the trophies had been awarded an Adult questioned the "legality" of the 2nd place winner. His axles were spaced further than 4 1/2". But there was no written rule and my input was that since the car passed impound inspection, it was a legal car. But, I the rest of the committee gave in to the guy and revoked the trophy from the Scout and...of course the guy who questioned the car son was bumped up to 3rd place.
Personally, I think you were right with your initial stand, especially since there was no rule against extended wheelbase. It would seem to be pretty hard to justify disqualifying the car. It's hard to maintain fairness if those running the event do not follow their own written rules.
piazza wrote:To answer the question about the start gate...that is a good one.

I am still planning the whole layout of the track. I have contacted DerbMagic and Best Track. Robert Haase at DerbyMagic stated that he is interested in sponosoring the event including providing the track and lending his knowlege towards engineering the setup.

Mr. Haase states that he belives the start gate should be 30' high. But that could cause some safety issues unless we could aquire the proper scafolding and staging to facilitate that height.

My idea has been to set the start gate at a standard height and have the straight section on a 2-3% down grade.
For the 125ft track used at the Indiana Museum race, they used the Micro Wizard track sections, so you might also want to consider contacting them. They held the race indoors and the start line was on a 2nd floor balcony.

I have never personally seen the DerbyMagic track, but I wonder if using it outside would be a problem. Mythbusters once did a segment on if a toy car could beat a real car in a gravity race. They used plastic track from RaceGrooves. The problem was that the track material saw significant expansion while out in the sun. Of course, that was a 1/4 mile of track, but it may be something to consider even with a 250 ft long plastic track, if the event is to be held outside.

Here's info on that Mythbusters segment:
http://www.racegrooves.com/hb/fea/Myth/busters.html
http://www.racegrooves.com/hb/fea/Myth/ ... _page2.htm

Also, are you going to use a timer on this track? The problem being that most all of the Pinewood Derby timers do not time past 9.9999 seconds. There is only one timer that I know of that will go much longer than that and this is The Judge timer from New Directions.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by piazza »

I did not realize there was a limit on timers. A custom timer sounds to be in order.

The event will be held outside. The committee sadi there will be 5 "really big" tents erected by the Army Corp. of Engineers. But even if we start inside of one, I'm would imagine the track will extend beyond it.

I will definitely look up your resources. This is why I have started this post. I believe that in the coming year this event will really come together.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by gpraceman »

piazza wrote:I did not realize there was a limit on timers. A custom timer sounds to be in order.
The Judge timers should work out for that length of track. Their newer timers will time out to a bit past 99 seconds. You would just need a long enough cable to go from the timer to the start switch. They also have a model that can be used out in sunlight.
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by Mr. Slick »

As far as the slope of the "flat" portion, I would suggest 1.5" per 7' or 8' section. A well aligned car will roll down this without losing too much speed. The razor wheeled pro-modified cars will actually pick up speed with that amount of slope. The nice part is that this amounts to 3/4" per support if you use two supports for each segment. (The use of common dimensional lumber to create the sloe is possible too!)

If you use a BestTrack with 7' sections this would mean that you would have the run-out start at about 48" high.
If the curve remains the same, the start height, with 3 sections in the slope rather then 1, would be around 12 feet.

The stop section will have to be extended to aid in the safe recovery of the cars. I use a double stop section when I do the 66 foot track and only a few make it to the 2/3 mark. Make sure that lots of attention is paid to the stopping - without the stop section the cars are ruined resulting in very unhappy kids. :cry:

One idea would be to build a 2foot wide platform that supports the entire track during the "flat" section. This would allow for lots of black and white checkered flags. :D
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by bad_karma_2805a1 »

Holy Huge Track Batman! I just want to come out and see that thing. Hmmmm makes me wonder what kind of ideas I could put into my own Council's head. I happen to be in the town which is home to the All American Soap Box Derby. Hmmm...big smooth hill...lots of room for a track....oh the possibilities!
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by piazza »

Just completed Webelos Woods last weekend, and we also completed our annual Scout Camporee the weekend before that. The Camporee was at the venue the World Record track will be at next September.

I contacted the track Mfrs. that expressed interest in sponsoring the event and they have all decided that the economics of providing the track does not add up. :doh: So, we will be making our own track for this event. I am actually looking forward to the challenge. :thinking:

We plan on making a 4-lane track for the event. The start gate will not be much higher than a standard track. The straight section will follow the natural down slope of an open grassy area that extends into the park beyond the covered area that will serve as the starting and pit area. I feel very confident that cars will make it down the track with this setup.

I will plan on the track construction being complete by late winter or early spring. Then we will erect the track on the event site and perform some test runs to see where we stand. ;)
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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by Nitro Dan »

Be sure to take plenty of pictures and/or video during the construction phase and post them here! :pray:

Can't wait to see how this turns out! :thumbup:

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Re: Guinness Book of World Records Pinewood Derby Track 9/25/10

Post by GrimJeeper91 »

For the Cen-Ten-O-Ree event at Whittier narrows BSA is planning on constructing a track 20 lanes wide and with a starting line 20 feet high. It will obviously be pretty long but I haven't heard the length mentioned yet. Either way we are looking forward to one heck of an event and fun times at the track.
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