How can it be?

General topics of interest to racers and race coordinators alike.
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Pinewood Po
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How can it be?

Post by Pinewood Po »

Hello everyone, I'm new here and to Pinewood Derby. I helped my grandson with his car this year. He won his pack derby and got to go on to district. We enjoyed all of it but I'm a bit confused at the results at district.

Each car ran all three lanes one time each. When a new fastest time was recorded the screen showed a new track record. After one round there was a grand final. What I'm questioning is one of the cars set 2 track records out of 3 runs. There were no more track records set after that. That car and 2 others went to the grand final. The car that set the 2 track records had a time of 6.986 for 3 races and was the winner of the round. Another car had 7.035 for 3 races and was 2nd. The car that had the 7.035 for 3 races beat the other car all 3 times in the grand final. I wish I had paid attention to the times in the grand final, but I didn't. I also noticed after the first round the timed difference between 1st and 2nd was almost the same as the difference between 2nd and 6th. Which led me to believe the 1st place car was by far the fastest there. The 6th place car's time was 7.082.

Any explanation how a car that was so blazing fast 5 minutes ago can be beat 3 times in a row?

I'm already looking forward to next year and helping my grandson. He is a tiger this year and had a blast at the derby.
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Stan Pope
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Re: How can it be?

Post by Stan Pope »

A change in heat averages of more than 0.016 seconds on a short track sounds incredible in absence of some damage to the now-slower car. A "rough stop" in the braking zone on its 3rd heat could have altered its axle alignment, for instance. Few lubes peak, then degrade that quickly.

Ask about seeing the heat by heat data. Race organizers certainly have it and may already have posted it or have plans to post it. The reports in pdf form are certainly "email-able" in size. The trends may be useful in differentiating damage vs gradual degradation.

:offtopic:
Going off to district races and getting only three runs down the track sounds like folks didn't get much "bang" for the time invested.
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pinecarpro
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Re: How can it be?

Post by pinecarpro »

could the winning car have been damaged in some way? because it should have not lost! Or how were the races started, a inconsistent starter. Or if the race timer is started by a beam in front of the pin one fast starting car that didn't win would make that a faster heat plus they would only race together twice. Or just equipment error

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Pinewood Po
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Re: How can it be?

Post by Pinewood Po »

One thing that I didn't mention before. There was another round that had been ran. The one operating the computer clicked on the wrong thing and lost all data so they started all over. The car that ultimately won the grand final had won that round.

I didn't see anything happen to the car with the blazing speeds that would make me think it was damaged in any way.

To me it just seemed the cars ran more consistent than the times showed.
I have no idea what kind of setup they have that records the times. This is all new to me. I do know at pack they pressed a button on a cord that opened the gate, at district it was a manual lever on the track they tripped.
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Duane
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Re: How can it be?

Post by Duane »

Pinewood Po wrote:I do know at pack they pressed a button on a cord that opened the gate, at district it was a manual lever on the track they tripped.
In tracks with a manually-opened gate with no spring action, the speed at which the starting pin rotates down out of the way can be slow and even slower, depending on the operator. On such tracks, cars with a high "boat prow" nose have a significant starting advantage over cars with a low front end. The cars with a low front cannot begin moving until the pin is entirely out of the way. Cars with a high undercut front can begin moving downslope as soon as the top of the pin begins to move. Our pack's track has slow manual pins, so I take advantage of this in all our cars.

In your district races, did the inconsistent car have a high nose? Did it sometimes beat all cars to the bottom of the slope, but then get overtaken on the flats?
Pinewood Po
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Re: How can it be?

Post by Pinewood Po »

I didn't notice any of the cars being high in the front. The car that set the track records wasn't high for sure, it was one of those thin flat board cars probably about 3/8" think.

The more I think about it, the more I think the timing was off. I saw no inconsistencies watching the cars run in the heats if I didn't look at the times.
My grandson's car won 2 races in the first round, the round that was thrown out, both races you had to be watching closely to see who crossed the finish line first but one of the winning times was 2.408 and I think the other was 2.371. Seems like a lot of difference on the timer for 2 cars that ran virtually the same for 2 races. Actually they ran virtually the same for 3 races. The 3rd race of the heat the other car won, close again and the losing time for my grandson's car was 2.410. Then in the 2nd round my grandson's car had an average of 2.358.

But then the one I think surprised a lot of people was the car that set 2 track records and minutes later was beat 3 races in a row in the grand final. The car that won the grand final had won the first round that was thrown out.

I'm not sold on the timers and think an elimination process without timers would be better. But as I said, I'm new to this, know little about it and I'm sure the timers are widely used for some reason.

All in all it was a great experience. I hope my grandson chooses to stay in scouts and gives me the privilege of helping him build his car again.
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Curse You Red Baron!
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Re: How can it be?

Post by Curse You Red Baron! »

I had something similar happen to us last year. My son took second in Bears... lost by less than an inch. 4 races per car. Our car was a straight runner, 3/4 cog, indented 1/16 on both sides in the front, 1/4 inch or so moved from back of car to front to push us back up the hill, aerodynamic profile, super-polished axles. However we were fast enough to make the pack run-off. There, the car that beat us slowed down considerably, and our car tied for first place... won by .001 in the final race-off tie breaker. So, we don't get to go to council despite winning pack because we are not first in our rank, but council does let us enter the open competition (took 1st). I noticed that the car that beat us wins Bears by a healthy margin (our car would have been 2nd in Bears against this same car, if the times were consistent.) However, in the council championship (excludes open class) our competitor's car again slowed considerably vs the initial rank (Bears) heats, and didn't even place, despite turning in the best times of the day in the Bear's Council heats. I had the chance to examine the car, as I picked up all the Pack's unclaimed cars at council for anybody who hadn't been able to make it. The car had a poor cog (1.75 inches), no indentation, no real optimization outside of a decent aerodynamic design. Obviously must have had good alignment. However the axles had grooves (legal under our rules), and looked machined (illegal, if true - supposed to use the ones 'in the box'). My theory is that the father used purchased axles, which made up for the defects in the car, but that the grooves and smoothness of the axles caused the graphite to quickly shake out. The wheels may have been purchased, but no obvious signs of it, & if they were trued, they at least did not appear to be lightened. Just a theory, since I don't have time or inclination to test it, and certainly wasn't going to make accusations I couldn't prove. My sons both had a good time, so that was the really important outcome, but maybe your 'mystery' car had something similar?
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