Electronic Interference Prevention
- gpraceman
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Electronic Interference Prevention
There have been cases of electronic interference causing problems with electronic timing systems. Timing systems run on low voltage DC and higher voltage circuits and cabling can induce extraneous currents in those systems leading to strange results. Some people have also experienced power fluctuations that have caused abnormally low race times.
Here's some prevention measures:
1) Check your power connections (to the wall outlet, to the timer and anywhere in between). If you wiggle them, the timer's display should not flicker.
2) Plug the timer’s power supply into a power strip with a built-in surge suppressor. Better yet, use a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply).
3) Make sure that you do not run the serial cable or the start switch cable next to any extension cords. Run the serial and start switch cables on one side of the track and any power cords on the opposite side.
4) Keep any solenoid start gate circuit separated as far as practical from your start switch and cable.
5) Never run an extension cord under an aluminum track.
6) Any piece of equipment that cycles on/off should be turned off during the race.
Here's some prevention measures:
1) Check your power connections (to the wall outlet, to the timer and anywhere in between). If you wiggle them, the timer's display should not flicker.
2) Plug the timer’s power supply into a power strip with a built-in surge suppressor. Better yet, use a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply).
3) Make sure that you do not run the serial cable or the start switch cable next to any extension cords. Run the serial and start switch cables on one side of the track and any power cords on the opposite side.
4) Keep any solenoid start gate circuit separated as far as practical from your start switch and cable.
5) Never run an extension cord under an aluminum track.
6) Any piece of equipment that cycles on/off should be turned off during the race.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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- Pine Head
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:28 pm
- Location: Salmon, Idaho
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
ferrit coils and or just looping cables a couple of loops will cancle out most if not all interference.
But running ac cables away from dc cables will help.
But running ac cables away from dc cables will help.
- gpraceman
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Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
The above list has been updated to include power fluctuation issues. I have seen some cases of power fluctuations causing timers to have abnormally low race times for some of my software customers.
I even experienced it myself for one race that I ran for a church a couple of years ago. The cause turned out to be a lead melting pot in the pit area. When the heater element turned on, it would cause a power fluctuation with the timer as they were plugged into the same outlet. Unfortunately, I didn't discover the source of the problem until the next year that I ran the race for this same church and saw the melting pot over in the pit area. I do now make sure that church turns off the melting pot before we start racing.
I even experienced it myself for one race that I ran for a church a couple of years ago. The cause turned out to be a lead melting pot in the pit area. When the heater element turned on, it would cause a power fluctuation with the timer as they were plugged into the same outlet. Unfortunately, I didn't discover the source of the problem until the next year that I ran the race for this same church and saw the melting pot over in the pit area. I do now make sure that church turns off the melting pot before we start racing.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
In Arduino-based timers, it will be easy to power all the electronics off of the laptop and its battery, using just the power line in the USB cable. That would give total isolation from the venue's AC power fluctuations, and any molten-lead pots, lefse grills, beer chillers, or whatever.
Another possible source of interference is induced currents in the long run of wires to an optical start gate sensor. Problems there can be avoided by using twisted-pair telephone wire rather than plain straight wires.
Another possible source of interference is induced currents in the long run of wires to an optical start gate sensor. Problems there can be avoided by using twisted-pair telephone wire rather than plain straight wires.
- gpraceman
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Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
True, but I always run my laptop off of the power supply. I'd hate to have my battery die in the middle of a race.Duane wrote:In Arduino-based timers, it will be easy to power all the electronics off of the laptop and its battery, using just the power line in the USB cable. That would give total isolation from the venue's AC power fluctuations, and any molten-lead pots, lefse grills, beer chillers, or whatever.
beer chillers Must be a redneck race.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
Agree, but be sure to ground any un-used pairs in the cable.Duane wrote:Problems there can be avoided by using twisted-pair telephone wire rather than plain straight wires.
We went this year with CAT5 cabling from the head of the track down to the timer. These cables carried the mech start switch, the DC power to the timer, the serial connection between timer/pc, and signals for our 'starter button'. This eliminated the need to run AC the length of the track, which I believe helps reduce chance of picking up some noise.
The serial signal is in one CAT5 cable, RX, Gnd, TX, Gnd, and Gnd, Gnd, Gnd, Gnd. Another CAT5 carries everything else. Makes setup much easier, everything color coded, etc.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
I was planning on using a cat5 cable to route all my sensor and start gate trigger to avoid the seperate cables for each. I've even thought of running two sets of cat 5, with one of them providing power for the start gate. At the moment, it's way down on my list of things I have to get done.
- gpraceman
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Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
IMO, it is better to keep these separated.msurebel wrote:I was planning on using a cat5 cable to route all my sensor and start gate trigger to avoid the seperate cables for each. I've even thought of running two sets of cat 5, with one of them providing power for the start gate. At the moment, it's way down on my list of things I have to get done.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
Randy, are you saying to keep the start gate power seperate, or keep all the sensors seperate? I would think with cat5 having twisted pairs, it will negate any interference. Of course, I've never tested it. What's been your experience.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
Randy,
Thank for the reminders as we head into the weekends of many derbies!
I just previewed the layout of our derby, and will keep this things in mind.
Thank for the reminders as we head into the weekends of many derbies!
I just previewed the layout of our derby, and will keep this things in mind.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
good tips - we use "the judge" and have always used it battery powered, so I think it will stay that way due to power isolation issues. We intentionally have the finish line in the middle of the room with absolutely no computer around. Thanks to the batteries we have three lines running back: regular audio cable type wires to the start gate, same type of cable running to the computer near the start line (via a serial-usb connection), and an active usb extension cable running from the finish line camera to the same computer.
The CAT5 connection sure would be near, but for the past three years we've had zero problems with timing so I think for us I will leave it alone.
For anyone else with an older "The Judge" (ours is ~14 years old): we sent ours back to the manufacturer two years ago and he rebuilt it to current specs. Cost was something like $40 and all of our problems went away. Well worth it!
The CAT5 connection sure would be near, but for the past three years we've had zero problems with timing so I think for us I will leave it alone.
For anyone else with an older "The Judge" (ours is ~14 years old): we sent ours back to the manufacturer two years ago and he rebuilt it to current specs. Cost was something like $40 and all of our problems went away. Well worth it!
- gpraceman
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Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
I just prefer to keep anything related to the solenoid circuit separated from the start switch, timer circuit and computer cabling, as triggering the solenoid can cause a surge.msurebel wrote:Randy, are you saying to keep the start gate power seperate, or keep all the sensors seperate? I would think with cat5 having twisted pairs, it will negate any interference. Of course, I've never tested it. What's been your experience.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
Could a large amount of cell phones cause problems? I and another pack have had similar problems of having everything working the night before the event and then the day of the event get crazy readings. We made sure everything was the same. Amps mics, overhead lights, etc were the same. We don't think sunlight was the issue because we were no where near any. The only difference I can think of is 50-100 people with cell phones present during the race. Although we had the same make of timer, his was brand new. New bold, with the wires to the sensors being little more than speaker wire, I wonder if they could picking up interference from phones?
- gpraceman
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Re: Electronic Interference Prevention
I really doubt that is possible.msurebel wrote:New bold, with the wires to the sensors being little more than speaker wire, I wonder if they could picking up interference from phones?
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Romans 5:8
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.