Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Commercial timing systems
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CubDad38
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Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by CubDad38 »

Hello,

Our pack owns a timer (see attached pics)which has 2 working sensors, but was built to span 4 lanes. The timer frame was pre-drilled for 4 sensors and we're hoping to add the other two for this year's Derby. The unit has no manufacturer or company markings anywhere so I'm hoping some one on this forum can help me with identification.

http://s1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd3 ... prksPhoto/" target="_blank

Hopefully, I'll be able to identify the source and be able to order the additional parts. If not, I'm open to any suggestions for what components I would need in order to start from scratch on all 4 sensors. The hub/switch (see pics) is already pre-wired to handle 4 sensors, so I think it would be a fairly straightforward process.

I have reasonably good soldering skills and generally can pick things up as I go, but haven't done any work with LEDs or phototransistors in the past. Please respond with suggestions on how I can proceed.

Thanks in advance for your time

Mike
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gpraceman
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by gpraceman »

I'm pretty familiar with the timers out there and that one is not one that I can remember seeing before.

Have you tried opening that controller unit and seeing if there are any markings on the circuit board? Though, with the "Pack 325" labeling on it, it seems more likely that this is a custom timer from someone that used to be associated with that pack.
Randy Lisano
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CubDad38
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by CubDad38 »

Yes - I did open the controller unit but there were no markings on the circuit board.

Any idea on whether I can just replace all 4 sensors, and what info I would need to order the correct components? I'm hesitant to tear apart one of the two existing sensors but it looks like I may have to.

Thanks for your input

Mike
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Stan Pope
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by Stan Pope »

Neat construction! Looks custom made but done very well!

The sensors look like theyu are embedded in hand-cut 1/4" thick lucite! It also looks like both transmitter and receiver are above the track and depend on a reflector on the finish line.

I could not see any components on the lane circuit other than a load resistor for the photo diode and a current limiting resistor for the led. The interface should be very easy to psych out. With the reflector implementation, I expect to see some kind of lens or blinder around the photo diode.

Before taking apart something that works, I think I'd try making a clone with off the shelf parts. You should be able to read the resistor colors, and measure the interface voltages so all that is left is to make an educated guess at the LED and photodiode ratings.

Anybody reach different conclusions on the circuit???
Stan
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by dna1990 »

I agree, to not dismantle anything that is working. Even if you get to the sensor items, these are often difficult to ID the exact spec. And it might take experiementing with a variety of parts to find something compatible. All the while, risking plugging in a component that harms the controller in some way.

My advice. Consider buying the K1CSA kit from Microwizard and fit it into the unit you have now. Ask them to ship with with the board complete, but with the longer bare wires and loose sensors, so you can route into the existing structure as needed and solder the sensor part yourself.
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by gpraceman »

dna1990 wrote:My advice. Consider buying the K1CSA kit from Microwizard and fit it into the unit you have now.
That is a good idea. Then they end up with a good quality timer from a company that will provide support if there is a need (now or well into the future). DIY timers are a great way to save money, but a drawback is that the builder will leave eventually and the knowledge of the inner workings of the timer usually leaves with them.

http://microwizard.com/k1page.html
Randy Lisano
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Stan Pope
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by Stan Pope »

Good concerns. I think that the risk can be managed by measuring the voltage and current on each lead into the controller for one of the working components. Do this when the beam is open and when it is interrupted. You need to do this anyway in order to identify each lead's function. Then a properly sized resistor in series with signal leads will limit current flow.

Remaining concern is the capacity of the power supply ... probably not an issue, but worth making a ballpark estimate, anyway.
Stan
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by gpraceman »

Stan Pope wrote:Good concerns. I think that the risk can be managed by measuring the voltage and current on each lead into the controller for one of the working components. Do this when the beam is open and when it is interrupted. You need to do this anyway in order to identify each lead's function. Then a properly sized resistor in series with signal leads will limit current flow.
If he is to upgrade this system, he should check the voltage going to the controller for the sensors and for the emitters. It is likely 5V for each.

I would also recommend that the sensors be placed under the track, like is most common with derby timers. Depending on the beam reflecting off of a reflective plate can pose detection issues with cars that have a high gloss paint job. The light from the emitters can reflect off of that as well as the sensors can get hit with a lot of ambient light, resulting in the sensors not detecting the car or a delayed detection.
Randy Lisano
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by quadad »

Another great reminder why its best to leave a copy of your circuit, parts list and software code with the item when you build something like this and leave the organization. I didn't look at the pictures very long, but it appears as if someone took an existing PIC with precise timing interface board and used an "attic board" to patch to the emitter/receivers.

While I am a fan of the low cost timer kit mentioned, I think you have something nice to work from here, as long as you are happy with the output (lights, display, etc.) that you get from it. My suggestion would be start similar to what Stan suggests, without damaging any existing sensor, observe with small probes, ball clips, etc., and a meter how the emitters/receivers work. Hopefully they operate similar to pretty much all of them where the emitters get turned on and the microcontroller (PIC in this case) times the signals from the finish line sensors. Then, unless you can tell for sure what exact parts you have there (very tough) and you like this system, I would try replacing all of the photo devices with more conventional parts like those used by the main manufacturers today. Otherwise you may end up with similar, but not quite the same timing for you new lanes as you have in the old ones.

If the check out went as expected, I would try contacting John Shrefller through this forum and ask if he would sell you some of his previous generation emitters and sensors (I think he may have upgraded recently). I have had very good dealings with him in the past on parts.

But make sure you are good for the future with whatever output you are getting now. If not, then it really is time to think about something else but you won't be able to change what you have there without help from the designer.
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by CubDad38 »

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses.

I emailed John Shreffler directly before posting in this forum, and he was able to quote some options for replacing the sensor hardware.

The K1CSA kit route would have advantages since we own DerbyMaster software and already have the housing, structure, serial cables, connectors etc. The only drawbacks could be the additional time required to work new parts into the existing structure, and I think we'd also need to purchase a new power supply (existing supply is 5 V/700 ma).

Either way, I think we'll try to split the emitters and receivers to top/bottom positions. I plan to check everything else out with a meter this weekend and go from there.

Thanks again
Mike
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Re: Need help identifying timer/hardware; source for parts

Post by gpraceman »

You can check with Micro Wizard on the power supply requirements for the kit. Your existing one may work, or you may have one lying around your house that will suit.
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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