What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

General cubmobile related topics.
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Go Bubba Go
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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Go Bubba Go » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:09 pm

Cub Scout Leader How-To Book, I think.

Don't happen to have a copy handy.


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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:27 pm

Back to the safety aspect again, I believe our car was VERY safe. It did not look like the car in the "book", but it's the same basic principle. There should a be picture floating around here somewhere. Anyway, we had a very low CG by mounting the crossmembers above the frame. Our steering stops were set at 1/4", the seat had side bolsters at the leg portion as well as the shoulder/arm area. We employed a rollbar that the rear of the seat attached to, that went over my son's head to protect him in the very slight chance that he would roll over. Our braking surface used pieces of cow/horse mat. The car would literally stop at the end of a downhill run, off of a ramp in 3-4'. It made nice black marks as well. We didn't go with a foot board either, but rather used grip tape on the front crossmember where the feet rest and attached nylon straps to the crossmember that wrapped around the back of the foot to hold it in place. It really worked well, it prevented the feet from moving around. Lastly, and I think this is fairly important, is to make the car sized to the kid. My son's legs were just slightly bent. When some of these kids sit in their cars, and there knees are bent excessively, it limits their control of the car. The straighter their legs, the less they can turn the front crossmember. We also painted a line from the front crossmember onto the frame so my son could easily see if he was steering straight. Some kid's would come off the ramp and be steering all over the track. I feel this is because they can't stretch their legs out enough.

I also feel that the original cubmobile was meant as an elective, not to be implemented in the yearly activities as the PWD is. So maybe if the cubmobile idea IS to be implemented as a nationwide race (locally on up), the rules/specs need to be updated to provide a safer, more standardized and more pleasant experience for everyone involved.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:44 am

To add some more to the topic, I have been corresponding with a member of the AASBD (soapbox derby organization) and we stumbled upon the cubmobile. Here are some bits of the conversations for you to browse and add your thoughts.
Biggest growth (according to my suggestion) is to adopt the cubmobile.
Been
around since 1937. A $100 cubmobile is a expensive cubmobile
Should Cubmobile be adopted as the entry level division of SBD?

Should there be seperate cubmobile events

or

Held during rally weekends, less distance

or even

Hold regional or even national cubmobile events at the Akron facility



AASBD board is scared that cubmobile is not safe

I keep stating if not safe BSA would not be support it!
At the DC new cars show and some of the SBD events we go to I talk to
the
family's that stop by.

The family's that seem to me that have the most interest have kids
younger
than 8 years old

The families with tweeners that stop by the booth or the parade or even
a
SBD rally seem to be already hooked into some other sport

The $600+ turn key cost to participate in the first SBD race is TOO
EXPENSIVE

A formula like cubmobile is:

cheaper

A $100 Cubmobile is a expensive Cubmobile!

Can be participated in by 1st and 2nd graders

Could be a grown into regional national effort held at SBD tracks

Could be adopted by AASBD rally

Have a Cubmobile race and AASBD rally on one day 2 AASBD rallys ion the
other day!


NDR series is considering 5 &6 years olds racing full length SBD events
in
stock division racers at 180lbs wet Different division!


They (NDR) are crazy!



Can you post a note out on Derby talk asking for feedback on

Regional Cubmobile events

Annual National Cubmobile event

So what are your thoughts??? Would you want to see the AASBD adopt the cubmobile?



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:46 am

I have been in-contact with A member at BSA and likely the same person you have been talking with in-regards to this for several months now.

I have provided alot of information to both parties.

I am still awaiting a reply from BSA, Cub Scouts division on alot of these questions and information that is being asked for.


I do not feel a $100 Cubmobile is exspensive. I feel it is close to being the real price in producing a safe and fun Cubmobile.

Keep in mind that the most costly part, is the wheels. Where I have always felt and seen where cheaper wheels have failed. So $10 for each wheel is where most of the cost comes from in building a Cubmobile. Thats $40.00 just for the wheels.

I recommend a 12 inch wheel, but 10 inch wheels are okay.

Then you have about $20 dollars in wood. About $12.00 in bolts, washers and screws.

Then deciding on how you mount it. Then this price can add another $12.00 to $20.00 onto the cost.

Mounting - The cross members with Brass Bushings into the wood. As not only a safety measure, like the king pin for the Soap Box Derby car.

Then the actual mount of the Axles, either by wooden blocks. which I have seen fail and crack and brake. I recommend pipe clamps. If you go with a solid axle. then that costs a tad more for the steel axles and you still have to mount that with eye bolts. Versus Bolts for Axles.

I also feel that the standard piece of brake tire used for the brake. Does not last more than a few runs and does not stop very well.

I recommend a hocky puck for the end. It works well and lasts very long time.

As often the rubber tire wears right out and then you are trying to stop with wood. The Rubber from the tire is just not thick enough.

After a days racing, as much as 3/8 of rubber has been missing off the hocky puck. It's also a harder rubber and wears less than the soft tire compound.

If the rubber tire is failing at speeds of less than 12 miles per hour. And a average speed of 6 to 9 miles per hour and even less than that at the finish line. Jjust keep this in mind if you increase the speed !

So that is why I feel $100 is a pretty real price of cost for a safe and fun Cubmobile. And most paint them. Which I did not mention the cost of that.

Now their may also be discount places and better deals to be had. As we know a 2x4 or 2x6 is cheap when you only need a few of them. The paneling adds up most of it for the cost of the wood.

And we used and recommend a old seat belt. Most junk yards sell them for $5 or $10.00. A also feel a adult size belt mounts to the seat could be used for securing the rider.

You also need a hemit. Unless you dont already have one. Then that is another $8 to $12.00 for a standard bicycle helmit

I have spent around $140 to $180 on each of the Cubmobiles I have built. But that goes more into better bearings, sand paper, prep and paint. Getting the higher grade wood. hardened Bolts for the axle and nylon lock nuts for most of the bolts that are used for the wheels and assembly of the Cubmobile.

Because it seemed during the race some of the bolts were loosening up. And i had to re-tighten them back up before the next race. Especially at the steering cross member section.


Now as for the other questions, I will try and recall them all.

Do I feel NDR should use a soap box derby car with less weight ? Answer is no !

Three-reasons, The cost ! The other Children that young do not have the skill level to handle a full lenth track run of NDR or SBD. The speed should not exceed 15 miles per hour for a child that young.

My 6 year old son, has used the Cubmbiles where we test race at. And he has real trouble keeping it strait and we have to yell to remind him to use the brake. Now after 5 to 10 times, he gets the hang of it. But he still has a much slower reaction time than his older brother.

And this is the start of the age range that we are pretty much talking about.

The first 4 fun races he did, well. He did not complete the 150 feet track.

I feel the Cubmobiles I have built and my son raced are safe. Do I feel that BSA has a clear picture and are up to date on rules and reg's for a Cubmobile.

I doubt it, I feel I know more about a Cubmobile than they do. Sorry to say this.

I feel that their should be Local races that lead to a district or national race of the Winners from the locals.

Yes, Cubmobile or a close version in that price range should be adopted for a younger entry level race into SBD.

The length of the track, should not exceed 150 feet. Nor do I feel that the speed should exceed 15 miles per hour.

This is a entry level for younger children to race and get a feel of racing and lead to SoapBox Derby racing.

If you look at the very old Soap Box derby cars made out of wood. this may be a thought of if you wanted a enclosed Shell.

But the foot and rope steering does not allow enough fine handling and adjustment at any greater of speeds than the 15 miles per hour.

Unless you went to chage the steering system. I also feel that children at that age do not have the fine motor skills and reaction time to handle more than 15 miles per hour of speed.

Further note:

I feel this is a great thing that AASBD is looking into and thinking about. I certainly feel A Cubmobile or Simulair type of Car at a much lower cost than the Standard cost of a Soap Box derby kit. Would not only give children a earlier start into Soap Box derby racing.

But would also increase the sport for children, From / For / Cubmobile to Soap Box Derby.


Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:34 pm

I agree with a lot of the discussion. There are ways to decrease the cost of the cubmobile, but not substantially. Sponsorship could help, but we know that it can become hard to obtain. I would like an organization to take the cubmobile serious enough to make a national set of rules. Along with local on up to national races. If BSA won't take it serious enough, either team up with AASBD, or maybe AASBD needs to create their own entry level car (class). As far as age, 6 is probably a good starting point. But ultimately it is up to the parent to decide if it is right for their kid(s).

Something else that the AASBD individual mentioned was that many kids were leaving SBD racing for other sports or motorsports. Depending on the sport and location, I can understand some of this. Not as much travelling for rallies, and less cost. But as far as motorsports, there is usually far more expense incurred with any of these forms of racing. To be successful, it usually comes down to who has the most $$$ to spend. That is a nice evening factor with either the cubmobile or the SBD cars. The rules keep the cars fair, and they are at the mercy of gravity. Reduce the cost of starting in the SBD sport, and entice with greater prizes and we may get more participation. Sometimes I think too many parents think their kid will be the next star football, baseball, basketball, etc, etc, and the chances are rather slim. Provide a good education for the kids, and let them have fun and be kids.

Thanks for the input Sporty, I hope we get more support to sway the higher powers to listen and make something happen.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Teeeman » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:00 pm

I have looked closely at approximating CMB costs… Sporty is right, $100 is not expensive… that is about as cheap as you will come out in the end with a fully equipped and safe car… paint might cost more even!!!


I emphasize ways to reduce costs by means of sponsorships and material donations… almost any neighborhood under construction will have huge box containers on-site for each house into which enough wood to build 20 CMBs is usually just waiting for you… but you must GET PERMISSION FIRST… this material is scrap for the house build and 99/100 times the folks don’t mind at all … however, you must BE CAREFUL as most of these boards and planks will have nails.


Safety: Our CMB races suffer from 2 things: no lane separators nor barriers (hail bails for example) and a rash of cars that steer and stop poorly. We also seem to be VERY lax in inspection.

I have tried to get the folks running it to allow me to participate and make the needed improvements but I think they are afraid I’ll go nuts with safety inspection and ¾ of the cars won’t run :(

Most CMBs are controllable with a bit of practice, one of my thoughts was to have all CMB participants run a practice course, then run the ramp from 1/3 height then 2/3 then full height.

But who has time for that eh?

But I’ve also watched a little guy flip his car before… luckily no injuries…


-Terry


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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:47 am

A different look at Cubmobile and AASBD.


If we look at on average how many states have AASBD races. This is not talking about the NDR races.

Now by going by the official AASBD website. We are able to find which towns and states hold races.

But it appears on average that three or four AASBD races are held in most states. Not all states hold a race.

Some states have more than four locations that hold a Official AASBD race.

There is no data base or information that I know of, of how many Cub scout packs through out the usa hold a Cubmobile race.

Either way, just looking at Illinois, Chicago,Mchenry, Rantoul, Quincy are the four cities that Hold a Official AASBD race.

I do not know if and how the AASBD try and gain more races in states.

As locations, depending on where you live can be a good travel distance from your home to have your child race in a Official AASBD race.


I know that, AASBD wants to bring more interest and ways to get into the sport. With looking at a younger division and lower cost for beginners into this sport.

In regards to the recent discussion on the Cubmobile.


If we look at the fact that most children locally in there hometown. Who have more cheaper and lower cost sports and activities that they get into.

Then look into the location and Accessibility of those activities.

We might just see that one of the reasons, less people are involved in Cubmobile race or AASBD race.

That a big factor is going to be location. Traveling distance !

Because most of us already know of the cost factors involved in either sport.

Unless you have a large sized vehicle to haul a Cubmobile or a Soap Box derby car.

Then transportation is also a factor in a family and child getting involved into the sport.

Now if we look, and asume that the Cub Scouts have alot of packs in the us. Perhaps even more Packs then the event holders for a Soap Box derby race.

So, we might asume the core net work is already in place and some what set up for a Cubmobile race.

However, a Local Pack decides to hold the event or not.


A AASBD event not already in place. Likely does not have a core network set up already.


Most local Cub Scouts have a magazine in place, where some information is provided in regards to a Cubmobile race.

Now aside from the costly AASBD magazine out there. The audience is much smaller. When doing this type of comparison.


Let look at merchandise. Although there is not much merchandise out there for Cubmobile races. The BSA/ Cub Scouts have a large customer base and Scout related products.

AASBD, seems to have a limited number of items they sell in regards to merchandise.

I also do not know how many AASBD events or Cubmobile events, Have a display of the others Racer ? and packet information.

Or how many local stores or malls put on display either a Cubmobile or Soap Box Derby car with information about the sport.


So I just wanted to get thinking about other factors aside from just cost. But locations and other aspects of these events that add into the overall awareness and increasing of the Participation into these activities.


When was the last time that AASBD had a AD in the Scout magazine or the local Magazines that go out to the local packs ?

Or vise versus, How often does BSA or Cub Scouts have a AD in A AASBD magazine or flyier.

I think it would be great if we could get some Input from the BSA or AASBD members on some of these other avenues to look at. That also relate to the overall increase in both sports.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:53 pm

I agree that if all parts are purchased new by a family, then $100 is a realistic price for a cubmobile. The nuts and bolts add up quick. I also believe it could be easy enough to spend more than $100. But, I also feel that a resourceful individual/family/pack could find ways to cut the cost. We had our local hardware store cut us a good deal on the wheels, and rope. The local Home Depot gave us a discount on parts, We got some nuts and bolts. A local fab shop gave us a good deal for our steel, which we used for the ramps and our axles. A salvage yard only asked for a donation for 50 seat belts. In our area, there is extensive construction going on, and the scrap lumber is plentiful.

If the decision is made to keep the local races and parts up to the packs, then maybe pool resources, and get sponsorship. If AASBD takes it all on them selves, then the $100 mark would be realistic. It's still much cheaper than a stock SBD car. Again, get sponsorship, do fund raisers.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:27 pm

Thats great to be get discounts and deals.


Some times it easy and sometimes not so easy.

I know some Cub Scout packs, worry of sponsorship and donations and help. As they worry it might affect the Friends of Scouting.

I know they are very careful on some of those issues.

I don't know if BSA will want to be involved in this or not. I think that something the two sides would have to meet and talk on. To work out details.

I guess one of the questions I need answered is what are all the avenues that SBD might be looking at for this to become a reality.

Is SBD hoping that BSA, Will have a common set of rules ? How dependant are they on wanting to see BSA involved ?

Or are they looking at there own rules and races ? Are they even thinking of a new name for the Car and design ?

I think alot of us need some more info and direction from them. In order for us to proceed much farther in detailed discussions of this.

I certainly would not be insupport of a $25 entry fee.

How much more would be exspected from BSA and local Packs who hold CMB races ?

How much more are the SBD locals willing to exspand and have a longer race or Bigger venue ?

Is this somthing SBD will say to the local even race holders, that they now have to cold a CMB race also ?

SBD is like CMB events, alot of volunteers or Organizations holding the events. Like Kiwanis.

I mean, I think most of us agree that a 600 feet race is to much for a young child with the Basic Cubmobile in mind. Or speeds that relate to SBD races.

Are the local SBD races willing to set up the races that are with in the limits for the younger children and car design ?

I just wish I new where SBD thoughts were at ? where they are inclined to say yes and where they might be saying no at ? On these questions.

I am also still awaiting a response from BSA also. Where do they stand what do they think ? can there be a unity in the Cubmobile races between the SBD ?

Sorry if I sound a tad frustrated, like other who have spent alot of time and put alot of work into this and related area's.

Sometimes I feel I get put on the side from BSA in getting back with me and corresponding with me on rules and Safety issues and Consistent events that are the same.

I want BSA to Look at the Cubmobile, like they do the PWD racing.

It could be insurance reasons, it could be simply not as much of a money maker for them.

I wish I knew more and guesses less on some of the many questions and information that I have sought out for a year and a half now.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:52 pm

I as well would like to see the cubmobile accepted by the BSA like they do the PWD. But I'm also discouraged somewhat by the lack of interest. Even on this site, look at the traffic on this topic compared with PWD related topics. There's no comparison. I wish we could get many more view points, and more interest from others on this site.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:59 am

Totally agree,

I see alot of viewers in the Cubmobile, not so many posts. But I have gotten alot more private e-mails this year from other packs. Asking for info and asking questions.

The PWD is much easier to set up and run compared to Cubmobile. So some of it might be that.

I think if BSA can be shown ways to sell and make money from it, they will gain a higher interest in it.

I also think it takes interest and more packs holding the event and speaking about it at council level and to the national office.

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Teeeman » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:15 am

Figured I'd build a PWD test track for under $40...


as usual, the plans of mice and men thing...

"no time" due to other distractions to order online most of the parts...

by that meaning plan ahead and figure out exactly what I need by "seeing" either the specs or the part itself...


the latter won out...


got to Lowe's... spend $75 for the $40 track...

still have some deniro to go...


:(



Given 3 weeks of 8 hours a day to search online I could build the track for $40.



:(





Conveninece costs.


Period.






If you have the time then you can make a CMB for at or under $100.


It is HARD to do.





-T


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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Tim » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:44 pm

I have a radical idea for Cubmobile competition that probably won't go over very well.

Don't make it a gravity-powered event.
Make it a kid-powered event.

Instead of a one car, one driver event, make it a timed relay over a flat course for a team of 4 or 6.
I'm envisioning two teams of four boys, and a two lane, multiple turn "road course".
Two boys push, one drives, and the fourth stays in the "pits/start/finish" to prepare for being the next driver.
On each lap except the last, there's a pit stop for the driver change, which is included in the overall time. The required seat belt has to be fastened before the car moves.
Each team gets a run in each lane, and the times are added together.

This makes it more of a one car per den event. As the number of people on the team increases, the car's performance becomes less important than teamwork. The cost of the car can be spread over more people. The pack could inherit cars over time, lowering the cost of participation even more. The same car could be used by both, say, a Webelos II team and a Tiger team, since there is unlikely to be a fair race between them, anyway.

I like the idea of multiple boys pushing because it emphasizes the value of teamwork, and makes the weight differences between the drivers less important. So it increases the minimum speeds of a team, and I think there's a bit of a "three legged race" effect, lowering the top speeds as well.

A Cubmobile that has limited steering for downhill is just about useless for pushing around in the back yard the other 364 days of the year. I have a half-acre, and with the recommended blocks, a 180 takes most of the back yard.

Downhill, the ability to brake is important. Pushing, with a couple of boys hanging on to the pushbar, the car isn't going to tip over, and most kids won't ram their friends into an obstacle at full speed.

What's needed, as with PD, is a more-or-less standard timing system so the races are perceived as fair.
Replacement garage-door safety beams could serve as the basis for that kind of system. At full retail, they might be a little pricey, but it probably wouldn't cost as much as a ramp. For a closed course, the same sensors would be used for both start and finish timing. A closed course also minimizes the wiring run needed. A two lane start/finish should store in less space than a PD track.

With a downhill race, you need an upper limit on the weight, requiring inspections. With a push race, it's essentially self policing: a heavy car is slow, a flimsy car will break. In a push race, neither is much of a safety problem.

So mostly the rules for the car would be: No propulsion, a push bar, a seat belt, and you have to have a car that will work on the timing system. This is just something on the front of the car at a standard height and minimum length that will interrupt the beam. Duct tape and cardboard would make something adequate. Though for that rule, it's not really the organizer's problem. If you want a reliable time, put the interrupter on the car. If you don't mind giving the competition an advantage, suit yourself.

Building a safe ramp, or finding a safe natural race area, can be difficult. Getting permission to use a corner of a parking lot is probably easier to organize.


Tim

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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:14 am

Tim,

Welcome to the board and thanks for the reply.

It is a interesting idea. Not sure how well it will take off. As we have many visitors to the forum.

Perhaps one might think on your idea.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:45 am

Tim, don't take this the wrong way, but I don't like your idea. If there is only one car for a den, where is the father/son time in teaching your son to build the car?

How do you govern the fairness in matching "teams"? Stonger kids, weaker kids, taller, shorter, etc. I could see a kid or kids pushing this car around the track, on of them lloses his footing and does a face plant into the asphalt. Or the pushers ent up pushing the car sideways and the car rolls and has the pushers falling onto the car and driver.
A Cubmobile that has limited steering for downhill is just about useless for pushing around in the back yard the other 364 days of the year. I have a half-acre, and with the recommended blocks, a 180 takes most of the back yard.
Unscrew the steering blocks, and either move them out, or remove them. After the race, it's the parents responsibility anyway.


This idea also does not bode well with district or regional advancement.

As for the timer and ramps, the timer could be made cheap enough, or there is a vendor on this site that can fab up a system for a reasonable cost. The ramps depend on how long you want them to last, and how portable you want them to be. They will more than likely be more expensive than the timer. We got some scrap steel, and a discount on some new steel. I constructed our ramps, and spent some of my own money in the process. It was one of my contributions to the program.

We as a pack had to fork out some money to get the cubmobile program going, but our district (other packs), are interested in competing with us. We could rent out our ramps to other packs, or charge a fee to race with us on our ramps. We have a cake auction this Tuesday for a fund raiser.

"Build it and they will come"...

The success of a pack relies heavily on the involvement of the parents.

Again, sorry Tim, as a national solution I don't like your idea, for a local race, have at it.



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