Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

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jschoolf
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Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by jschoolf » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:44 am

It is one week until race day and this is my first time organizing a race. I am the leader of the Father Son ministry at my church and hope to make this a life changing event for fathers and sons with breakfast, races, devotional/message and awards. Since this is the first event for our ministry I also tried to keep to the KISS method (Keep It Simple Silly) I am a blank slate when it comes to Derby races.

What have been some or your pitfalls on raceday that I should steer clear of?

I have this design for the races:

Race 1
Heat 1 All cars race in sequential order in groups of 6 on each of the 2 tracks
Winners of race receive 2 points, runner up receives 1

Heat 2 All cars race in random order in groups of 6 on each of the 2 tracks
Winners of race receive 2 points, runner up receives 1

Race 2
Heat 1 All winners from race 1 race in random order in groups of 6 on each of the 2 tracks
Winners of race receive 2 points, runner up receives 1

Heat 2 All winners from race 1 race in random order in groups of 6 on each of the 2 tracks
Winners of race receive 2 points, runner up receives 1

Race 3
Semifinals All winners from race 2 race in random order in groups of 6 on each of the 2 tracks
Winners compete in final race for "Fastest car"

Finals All winners from Seminfinals race to determine "Fastest Car"

Do any of you see a problem with that? I have many other questions but don't want to overwhelm the reader with any more for the moment.

God bless you all.



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by TAL » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:50 am

Do you have 2 six lane tracks???

How many cars are you exspecting???

If you have 2 different tracks are the 2 tracks equal???

Or do you have a 2 lane track and will keep the cars in groups of six???



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by jschoolf » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:03 pm

I have 2 identical 6 lane tracks.



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by TAL » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:31 pm

O.K , you have 2 identical 6 lanes , Are all 12 lanes equal???

How many cars are you exspecting to race???

Will all the cars have an oppurtunity to run each of the 12 lanes???

How will you determine the winner at the finish line of each heat???



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by jschoolf » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:06 pm

I expect about 60+ cars that day, so each heat will consist of numerous mini-heats to complete the heat and race.

I have updated the race schedule with the following, maybe it clears things up...does this look better?

Race 1
Heat 1 All cars race in sequential order in groups of six (winners advance and have a bye on Heat 2)
Points 1st: 5, 2nd:4, 3rd:3, 4:1
Heat 2 All losers from Heat 1 race (all losers here are eliminated)
Points 1st: 5, 2nd:4, 3rd:3, 4:1
Race 2
Heat 1 All cars race in sequential order in groups of six (winners advance and have a bye on Heat 2)
Points 1st: 5, 2nd:4, 3rd:3, 4:1
Heat 2 All losers not eliminated from Heat 1 race (all losers here are eliminated, winners advance to race 3)
Points 1st: 5, 2nd:4, 3rd:3, 4:1
Race 3 (if needed)
Heat 1 All cars race in sequential order in groups of six (winners advance and have a bye on Heat 2)
Points 1st: 5, 2nd:4, 3rd:3, 4:1
Heat 2 All losers not eliminated from Heat 1 race (all losers here are eliminated, winners advance to race 3)
Points 1st: 5, 2nd:4, 3rd:3, 4:1
Finals
Heat 1 All cars race
Points 1st: 10, 2nd:5, 3rd:3, 4:1



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by TAL » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:36 pm

Looks like your putting a lot of thought into this and I am sure the people will sincerely appreciate it ...

But personally I don't like the points system (not yours ,just all around in general) especially when using it to elimanate cars ...

I would'nt use the points system especially with that many cars, lanes and 2 different tracks...



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by jschoolf » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:14 pm

Well, the points figure in to the whole event itself, we are having other things the father/son groups can compete in to gain points to get a trophy for most points....I don't like the points system mainly because it complicates things...



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by TAL » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:09 pm

What if a slow car gets in a slow group and wins and earns points they really did'nt deserve , because if they had been with a fast group they would'nt have earned those points... And what if a fast car gets in a fast group but finishes last and earns no points where they would have earned points if they had of run with a slower group...

Also if a car only runs 1 time and loses he advances to the losers group(not a good choice of words) and loses again he has earned no points... But who is to say if they had been in another group they might have earned some points ...

It goes the same with any lane differences ... If a car does'nt run in every lane at least once, they will probably again feel cheated in some way ...

If the max possible points to win in this event is say 30 points for example , I would use one 6 lane track and timer and give each car one run in each of the 6 lanes and use the average time to determine winner and give the winner the max possible points of 30 points and second fastest car 29 points and third place 28 points right on down each finishing position to 1 point for all participants...

with 1 run in each of the six lanes that will be 6 runs for each and every car, so if the turn around time for each run is 1 minute it would take 1 hour to do the actual race with 60 cars and each participant in groups of six will be back for their next run in about 10 minutes...

Every body gets the same amount of runs in each lane and you still have points availible for the event and all involved will probably have a better understanding of the event...

And nobody knows who is the winner until the end of the race and all will keep interest because of the suspence...



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by jschoolf » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:29 pm

That is a very interesting design, I will talk it over with my derby guru and see if we can get it to fly for this weekend.



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by Cory » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:52 am

jschoolf wrote:That is a very interesting design, I will talk it over with my derby guru and see if we can get it to fly for this weekend.
Just to get the "other side" heard from, there are plenty of valid arguments in favor of both points-based and time-based scoring systems. They are discussed at length elsewhere on this board.

Before you commit to one or the other, I suggest that you make an effort to become aware of certain key issues on both sides of the argument. For example, with a time-based system what will you do if a car jumps the track? Are they automatically disqualified since they don't have six timed runs? Or do they incur a time penalty, and if so, how much of a penalty?

Given your short time frame, another suggestion would be to consider using Stan Pope's No-chart Elimination system, which is somewhat similar to your original scheme. It has received positive feedback on this site, and if I understand it correctly, I think you could adapt it so that you could use both of your tracks.



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by gpraceman » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:17 am

With around 60 racers, I would recommend that you stick with one track. Adding a second track doubles the complexity of running the race and makes it harder for the audience to keep track of what is going on.

If you do go with two tracks, and are compiling results across the two, then you should use a point scoring system and not times. Unless the tracks are absolutely identical (which no two are) then you are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to times.

I would recommend that you take a look at the Perfect-N type charts. This is included in some race management software and on the web at http://members.aol.com/standcmr/ppngen.html. Everyone will race on each lane of the track and everyone will race the same number of times for that chart. Racers will also get a variety of opponents. If you want some type of elimination, then you can take the top X number of fastest cars from the first chart and then run a second chart.

With these charts, you know ahead of time which car is racing in each heat and in what lane so you can prestage the cars at least one heat ahead. This keeps the pace of the race going quickly, so you can crank out the heats faster than many other schemes.
Last edited by gpraceman on Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:28 am

Cory wrote: if I understand it correctly,

You do.
Cory wrote:I think you could adapt it so that you could use both of your tracks.
Run as a single-queue, multiple server system, i.e., have one queue of racers, with the front of the queue served by the next available track.

I think the proposed scheme is a double elimination (or variation thereof.) If so, you will find accuracy at identifying the four fastest cars to be rather better with a quad-elim no-chart. DE is fairly accurate for 2 places, but beyond that, the placement becomes pretty iffy.

Problem is to learn no-chart concept/method well enough to run it smoothly in less than a week!

No-Chart can be run totally paperless, but I prefer to keep a record on each racer, at least. It runs most expeditiously if racers handle their own cars, but can also be run with racers as spectators.

Properly run, no-chart is the fastest way to run when racers stage and retrieve their own cars.


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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by TAL » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:42 am

Cory wrote:
jschoolf wrote:That is a very interesting design, I will talk it over with my derby guru and see if we can get it to fly for this weekend.
with a time-based system what will you do if a car jumps the track? Are they automatically disqualified since they don't have six timed runs? Or do they incur a time penalty, and if so, how much of a penalty?
If a car jumps track and effects another car or cars, that heat will be a rerun after a breif check of all cars involved .... If a car jumps track and does not effect another car they receive the max set time for the run ( which I generally set at 4.000 seconds on a 40 foot track ) and a car will also receive the same set max time if a car does not cross the finish line in that heat...

Also if a particular car jumps track 3 times in the overall racing, that car will be set aside and receive max set times for each of it's addtional runs, because it will not be on the track but will remain on the roster...

Also there are things like elimanating the slowest run of the six runs for the average... Or you can do all six runs for the average ... Or you can set it for just the single fastest run of the 6 runs for each and every car to determine the winner right on down to last place position for position...

Using 6 runs for the average is for better builders , When discarding the single slowest of the six runs is for intermediate builders, and using the single fastest run of the six runs for each and every car to determine winner would probably be for the entry level builders...

Double elimination or quad elimination can be a good and fun method , but can be confussing to most spectators and racers if not understanding the process ...When we have used the DE or QE method , it seems most do not understand until the race is half or nearly over unless they have done it or observed it before......

With 60 plus cars somebody better understand the method or you will have 60 racers looking at you (plus mama's and daddy's)...



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Re: Need advice on finalizing race organization (newbie)

Post by TAL » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:10 pm

jschoolf wrote:It is one week until race day and this is my first time organizing a race. I am the leader of the Father Son ministry at my church and hope to make this a life changing event for fathers and sons with breakfast, races, devotional/message and awards. Since this is the first event for our ministry I also tried to keep to the KISS method (Keep It Simple Silly) I am a blank slate when it comes to Derby races.
So how did it go ???

Good ?

Bad ?

All of the above?



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