Rules Chaos -

[Nooby]

This year, as a new member of the pack, we have received two sets of rules. One our pack rules. The other supposed to be the same as last years "district" rules. Some things are common, some are different or vague. The problem with the district rule is that it is defined by the pack hosting the race - who knows what this years host will use.

1. Pack

The furnished wheels shall not be altered in any way that could change their dimensions except to remove burrs and mold lines. Polishing the wheels is permissible. Wheels may be sanded only to remove the seams. No other treatment of the wheels is permitted.

District

Wheels may not be altered in shape or size. You may sand the ridge off so the wheel runs on the track smooth. Rough edge on outside of wheel must clearly be visible. Rounding edge of wheel off is not allowed.

My interpretation of the pack rule would be that wheel hub coning is not allowed. However, the "district" rule appears less restrictive.

2. Both pack and District have the similar language:

The car cannot have any front wind foils. The car cannot be of a fork style or have a V groove in the front of the car. The front of the car cannot be upswept. The design must be such that the furthest point forward comes in contact with the starting pin.

All is fine except the "cannot have front wind foil". A strict interpretation would require constant cross section on the front (vague in itself). I've seen many car with what could be considered a crude "windfoil". Aside from some attempt to get a early start, is there some unfair advantage here?

3. Also, both are similar here.

Axles may be polished. No other treatment to the axles will be permitted. Grooves cannot be cut into the axles. Axles cannot be thinned. You cannot cut the axles.

Without a post race teardown, how are you going to find grooved axles or thinned axles? Also, what would be the advantage of cutting the axles? Is it possible that all they want is to see the nail head. (Slots are required - vaguely).

4. This is my favorite.

Pack

"Each car will be run in 4 heats and the best average time will be used to determine the winners". Unfortunately, there was no electronics on the manual starting gate. Someone told me we could do it, but we didn't have the right software. I'd like to see that software. Some type of point system was used based on finish order (determined electronically)

District - Does it get any better? - I think not.

"double elimination tournament to determine the overall top 3 finishers". Maybe we can get 3 finishers, but I'm not sure about the top 3.

5. Slot Rule.

Axle slots cannot be moved. The spacing of 4 3/8 inches must be maintained.

Is it too much to ask that to simply state "axle slots must be used".
This was a great source of controversy since the rules weren't distributed until 6 days before the race and I was told that an extended wheelbase was ok -since we already built the car before the rules were distributed - that was another post.

[Stan Pope]

So leave the slots visible and exactly where the rules say that they must be. Put the axles somewhere else! You would be in exact compliance with the meaning (but maybe not the intent) of the rule as you quoted it!

I shouldn't throw too many stones ... after 8 months of me badgering the district leadership to do something, our district rules were published ... about a month before the district races and after many of the packs had distributed kits and held races. Little changed. of necessity! A clarification on leaving the axle heads clearly visible and recommendation on maximum nose height so that electronic judges would "see" the nose of the car... down 1/4" from prior year.

I think that the district has the responsibility to take the leadership in setting rules... not in a vacuum, of course, but coordinated with a comittee of pack representatives. Maybe include an engineer or two because they are used to dealing with "specifications" but I think I'd exclude legislators, because they are too used to creating loopholes!

Now is the time to beat upon your district committee to get their act together for 2009! They will need about a 9 month head start!

[Nooby]

Strong leadership at the district would help. In fact, i can see no reason why there would be pack rules - only District rules if the intent is to have the winners go to a district race.

Any comment on windfoils? - We would have shaped our second car with some type of airfoil, but to comply strictly with the rules, we avoided that. Our reasoning was any downforce created by the windfoil was of lesser value than a potential rules conflict.

And how do you politely tell someone that only an idiot would think that double elimination will produce the top 3 results?

I like the idea of of challenging indefinite rules, however it is a scouting event and I put on my best face (besides, we had a second car to race)

In any event, they must realize the rules stink because they have more rules:

Manipulation of rules to interpret them other than intended to gain an unfair advantage will be deemed un-sportsmanlike conduct. (Clarification of all rules may be obtained from the race committee.)

Un-sportsmanlike conduct is grounds for disqualification from the race.

My problem with this rule is that i asked for clarification, twice, was told it was ok. It was only after inspection that the committee "discovered" a rules problem.

[CuriousGeorge]

Strong leadership at the district would help. In fact, i can see no reason why there would be pack rules - only District rules if the intent is to have the winners go to a district race.

AMEN!!!

[CuriousGeorge]

In any event, they must realize the rules stink because they have more rules:

Manipulation of rules to interpret them other than intended to gain an unfair advantage will be deemed un-sportsmanlike conduct. (Clarification of all rules may be obtained from the race committee.)

Un-sportsmanlike conduct is grounds for disqualification from the race.

So in other words, if they don't like something or didn't make a rule clear, they can use this rule to DQ the car? If they have this rule next year, I would direct all questions to the person that has the final say before building the car and skip everybody else. (Probably the race committee chairman). As for extending the wheelbase but leaving the original axle slots, you know they would say that fell under the manipulation of the rules rule.... maybe not though.

Anyway, distributing the rules 6 days before the race is ridiculous. If I where you, I'd call my District Executive and see about setting up some "District Rules" for next year and explain to him/her the advantages.

[ranman106]

Strong leadership at the district would help. In fact, i can see no reason why there would be pack rules - only District rules if the intent is to have the winners go to a district race.

AMEN!!!

Oh if that were only true!!!!

[pack529holycross]

do what I am doing - challenge the rules early. Find every possible race car design and condition not covered by the rules, and ask them in order, in the form of a pass / fail question: is this allowed? is that allowed? does this design violate that rule? give pictures and specific examples for them to pass/fail. This will help to insure that YOUR cars pass.... that's the most you can do, my friend.


Nicholas

[Go Bubba Go]

do what I am doing - challenge the rules early. Find every possible race car design and condition not covered by the rules, and ask them in order, in the form of a pass / fail question: is this allowed? is that allowed? does this design violate that rule? give pictures and specific examples for them to pass/fail. This will help to insure that YOUR cars pass.... that's the most you can do, my friend.

Nicholas

I'm kind of taking it for granted that Nicholas is asking for these things in writing. Bring the written replies with you.

Sometimes trying to get a straight answer out of folks is like trying to pick up a ball bearing off the floor with oily hands. If you go through all the trouble to get your "yes or no"s, keep a copy in your back pocket to avoid (or at least minimize) any "I didn't say, mean, indicate, ...... that you could do that, you misunderstood" type stuff.

Too bad you have to think this way, but sometimes it's necessary.

Bubba

[pack529holycross]

do what I am doing - challenge the rules early. Find every possible race car design and condition not covered by the rules, and ask them in order, in the form of a pass / fail question: is this allowed? is that allowed? does this design violate that rule? give pictures and specific examples for them to pass/fail. This will help to insure that YOUR cars pass.... that's the most you can do, my friend.

Nicholas

I'm kind of taking it for granted that Nicholas is asking for these things in writing. Bring the written replies with you.

Sometimes trying to get a straight answer out of folks is like trying to pick up a ball bearing off the floor with oily hands. If you go through all the trouble to get your "yes or no"s, keep a copy in your back pocket to avoid (or at least minimize) any "I didn't say, mean, indicate, ...... that you could do that, you misunderstood" type stuff.

Too bad you have to think this way, but sometimes it's necessary.

Bubba

yes - typically there is a "point person" for the Derby, to which you can address any issues. I use email, so that all responses are printable.