Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Discussions on race planning, preparations and how to run a "fair" and fun race.
Post Reply
User avatar
3 Cub Dad
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

This was just so totally unbelievable that I had to post it here...

During our district derby on the 12th, we only had two cars show up with major problems. (Several overweight, a couple of overlength limits, but those were all fixed quickly) One car showed up with illegal wheels, (lightened and beveled tread). They were given the option of replacing the wheels or racing in the open class. They decided to change the wheels, no problem.

The other car, (also from the same pack I found out later), was a dead ringer to this e-bay car, right down to the decals, only the color was different:

Image

Now, I'm a firm believer in just because a car LOOKS like an e-bay car or a kit, doesn't mean that it is, it just means we ask a few questions. When I looked at the bottom, it made me a little more suspicious, a beautifully mounted tungsten round, and tungsten plates, only ones I saw all day. Also, the wheels had obviously been turned on a lathe or shaved, basically, they were 2.2g speed wheels. So I asked mom and webelos to tell me how he made the car. He giggled and said it was a trade secret. I said if he wanted it to race, he had to tell me. So he looked at his mom and said "well, does painting it and putting the stickers on count?" Then mom asked what the problem was, since he painted it and put the stickers on, it was "his" car. So I asked him what they had done to the wheels and axles, and he said nothing, just put them on..... I said I'd get back to them and had a discussion with the DE that I was going to DQ the car and why and he supported it completely. Went and continued to talk to the mom off to the side and she admitted that she had paid a client who was an engineer for a major company just to "cut out the design". So I asked her where she got the tungsten weights. She didn't know what I was talking about, so I pointed out the $40 in weights on the car. I told her that we couldn't allow the car to race in the Cub division but we would allow it to race in the Open division where it would probably win a trophy. She stated that he HAD built a car in the Pack workshop, but didn't like it, so the "got" this one, and since he painted it, it was his car, so why couldn't he race. I told them since he had nothing to do with building the car, he didn't work on the car, the weight, or the wheels, just took a car that someone else built, it wouldn't be fair to the other scouts to let it run. Well, they didn't like it, so they decided to leave, and one of the dad's ran it in the open class. (came in 2nd, probably would've finished 4th in the cub class)

Well fast forward a few days, and the wife of that packs CM calls me. She's also very active at the district level. Blessing me out for not allowing the car to race. "How could we run a district event where a scout left the event very upset"! She stated she "knew" the lady very well and was sure that she didn't think it was cheating!!!!!!! When I mentioned the other car from her pack she stated "well I could believe the HE would try to get something by" (so I guess it depends on WHO you are) She said that the lady had told her she had just paid to have someone cut it for them since they didn't have a saw. When I asked about the tungsten weights, she didn't know anything about them and "maybe she got them at the scout shop"...... She also said that they didn't do anything to the wheels or axles, they were "straight" from the box. I asked if she had ever worked on building a PWD car, and she said no, the men in the pack, and her husband handled that. I told her to ask her husband what would happen if you just took the wheels and axles from the box and put them on a 5oz car, it probably wouldn't even make it down the entire 42'! She said that this mom and son were never very competitive so she couldn't imagine them trying to cheat. I told her intentional or not, it was a blatant violation of the rules then I asked her: Lets say her son is in highschool, mainly getting B's and C's and has a major research paper due for school. Would it be ok for mom to go online and find someone else's research paper and print it out and have her son re-type it and turn it in as his work? She said of course not. I said "Why not? He typed it, it was his work?" (she REALLY didn't like that - but this had been going on for 20 minutes) I also said maybe she should ask the kids and parents in her pack, that raced the car that they built in their pack workshop and lost out on a trophy to this car if they thought what they had done was "fair" and showed scouting "honesty" and "integrity". She stated that she didn't think it would be fair to accuse the scout of cheating. I told her that was the first comment she made that I agreed with, because it wasn't the scout's "client" or the scout that paid for it. Then she brought up how wasn't it funny since I was the derby chairman that MY son's took 1st and 2nd! (I almost lost it) I told her she could talk to my boys any time she wanted, THEY could tell her how THEY cut out the cars, how THEY sanded it, how THEY put the wheels on the drill mandrels and sanded the wheels, how THEY filed and polished the axles, how THEY put the weights on the car, how THEY painted it and lubed it. All dad did was work with them and do a lot of the alignment.

She finally ended that she still didn't think it was right and if we have another district derby next year we can just count their pack out because they won't have anything to do with it. I stated that it's too bad that just because she's embarrassed for her friend that the scouts who want to play by the rules will miss out on that opportunity.

The bad part is, like I said, she's very active in District. I found out that before she even talked to me to find out the details, she had been spreading comments to others about how bad the derby was! The DE is fed up with them. I told him I won't bring it up, but if someone asks me, I will give them the FULL details, including the pictures of the cars!

Sorry for the length, but I needed to rant a little, and figured this would be the most receptive, (if not captive) audience!
User avatar
Randy and Son
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: Elkhorn, Nebraska

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by Randy and Son »

Wow! I'm not sure I would have had your patience to hang in there so long. But nice job holding your ground and making your point in a good rational way. You did the right thing and it sounds like at least the DE and a few others agree with you. Chances are the complainers will have less influence as others become annoyed with all the whining as well.

I especially like that you emphasized that you weren't accusing the Scout of cheating but that maybe someone else was at fault. You're right. The scout didn't cheat. He's probably never even heard of the word 'tungsten'.

Randy
User avatar
3 Cub Dad
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

Randy,

Thank you for your kind words. I've re-played the entire ordeal multiple times in my mind. Maybe we could have been a little more descreet about it, (it's hard when everyone's milling around and checking in), but I still firmly believe we made the right decisions.

Steve
User avatar
PWD_addict
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:35 am
Location: Middle River, Maryland

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by PWD_addict »

3CD--
Great job on that!!! It was my biggest fear that someone would show up with an eBay car last weekend. I'm glad no one did but I don't think I would have done as well as you had they.
tmbnorm
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:42 am

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by tmbnorm »

We had a boy at district with a car that looked too good, if you know what I mean. The paint job, everything, right down to the tiny tungsten cubes that were in the perfectly routed out pockets under the car.

The boy finished 2nd overall. His little brother's sibling car took 1st place and set the track record in the process. The boy has brought similar cars to the previous district races.

Nothing could be proven, but it all adds up.
User avatar
SlartyBartFast
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:30 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by SlartyBartFast »

Well done.

I'd think of putting your description of the events in a memo that can be handed to anyone who asks.

Since when has running an event been about making sure no one was upset? Also amazing how people who are so concerned about one person being upset will freely gossip and spread innuendo about others.
sdupont1
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: Port Allen, Louisiana

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by sdupont1 »

Somehow I missed this one. The only problem with what happened is that we have a handicap in our pack. If you were to ask him what he did on his car, he would look at you with a blank stare. Clearly the father did most of the work, but is the child suppose to be pentalized for this. I think not.

On another side, my sons car is always critized about its look and speed. I'm an engineer and have multiple tool for metal and wood working. Is he at fault because I have these such tools and that we can spit out a good racer each year. We use a drimel to prep the axles and to this day he still doesn't know the name of the tool. He has an idea in what he is doing but tools used, not a chance, now ask him about mario bros for the playstation, ans you'll get every character.

I know and understand the situation you were in but how do you judge who gets in and who doesn't. I could clearly look at a car on ebay, use autocad to draw it out and then cut it out. Am I at fault for copying.


One more note, the trade secrets. This is what seperates a good car from a great car. Again why pentalize little A's car for knowing fast tips, hours of practice and tuning just to tell little B's car who knows nothing. I would have personally stood my ground on the secrets issue.

IMO, this one would be hard to police.
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by Teeeman »

Hired an engineer who works for major company to build it for them...

sounds like they eBay'd the car from good ole GM Engineer...

think that is his trademark car.

If you have rules against bought cars, this was a good call in my opinion.

So far as the defending lady... she already had her mind made up who was right before she called from the sounds of it.

Folks who get spun on one kid's feelings really are missing the point... letting one kid cheat is upsetting every other kid who enters even if they don't know it in my opinion.

So is the feelings of one more important than the feelings of, say, 20 or 40 or 150 other boys?

(maybe in our legalistic society it is, but not in my opinion)

-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
User avatar
3 Cub Dad
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

Hey sdu,

If you re-read the post, you'll see this line:

Now, I'm a firm believer in just because a car LOOKS like an e-bay car or a kit, doesn't mean that it is, it just means we ask a few questions.

It was after the questioning, when mom admitted that she paid someone for the car, and the Webelos II admitted that all he did was paint it and put on stickers, that we made the decision not to let it race. Now if parent and child want to look you in the face and lie, there's not much you can do about it :? Had that happened, and they at least had some type of believable lie, I would have had to let it go.

Just as a side note, read this thread about the results of that district race:

http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=38 ... highlight=

After you read that, and the impact that this one cheating car would have had, you may look at this decision differently. We always talk in generalities about the 20, 30 or 100 kids who did follow the rules and how it could impact them. This is a concrete example. Given 100 chances to make this call again, I would everytime.

warning: stepping on soapbox :D

I firmly believe that the Lord puts us in places and times where our efforts or talents could make an important impact on others. From a simple smile, holding a door, stopping a child about to run in the street, or even judging an insignificant race of a bunch of little wooden cars. Maybe the boy who received the trophy from his wheelchair or the boy who wasn't allowed to race will remember that day and hopefully, I pray, it will have a positive impact. I'll never know, but I'd like to hope. I'm in this not only for my kids, but all of them. If we don't protect the least among us, who would protect us?

"stepping off soapbox" :roll:

Sorry bout that, it's been a crazy day!
sdupont1
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: Port Allen, Louisiana

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by sdupont1 »

Must have missed that one also, same situation.
User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by pack529holycross »

sdupont1 wrote:Somehow I missed this one. The only problem with what happened is that we have a handicap in our pack. If you were to ask him what he did on his car, he would look at you with a blank stare. Clearly the father did most of the work, but is the child suppose to be pentalized for this. I think not.

On another side, my sons car is always critized about its look and speed. I'm an engineer and have multiple tool for metal and wood working. Is he at fault because I have these such tools and that we can spit out a good racer each year. We use a drimel to prep the axles and to this day he still doesn't know the name of the tool. He has an idea in what he is doing but tools used, not a chance, now ask him about mario bros for the playstation, ans you'll get every character.

I know and understand the situation you were in but how do you judge who gets in and who doesn't. I could clearly look at a car on ebay, use autocad to draw it out and then cut it out. Am I at fault for copying.


One more note, the trade secrets. This is what seperates a good car from a great car. Again why pentalize little A's car for knowing fast tips, hours of practice and tuning just to tell little B's car who knows nothing. I would have personally stood my ground on the secrets issue.

IMO, this one would be hard to police.
I am still wrestling with creating measures to "redirect" parents who may be tempted to purchase a car complete and run it in a derby. I think that the wonderful "wheel weigher" device that others from this board have designed and built is a great start towards that goal. IF you can accurately regulate and enforce wheel weight to 3.3 grams or higher, then you can weed out "speed wheels". Obviously regulating and policing BSA-spec wheels is significantly more challenging without a teardown, but I also still think that if this event had the prior notice that the winning car will be displayed in a District " Hall Of Fame " display case, it MIGHT have given this mom a moment of pause before she plunked down $75 or $100 DOLLARS on a car that would be a "one time shot".
Teeeman
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:40 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by Teeeman »

$75 or $100...

I did a review of cars in January on eBay and saw many selling for $150...

some for more.


Not sure what GM-E gets for his at top bid price...

I didn't follow any of the auctions.


-Terry
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
sdupont1
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: Port Allen, Louisiana

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by sdupont1 »

IF you can accurately regulate and enforce wheel weight to 3.3 grams or higher, then you can weed out "speed wheels".
The problem in our council is they allow lightened wheels but markings must be intact inside and out "official BSA made in USA" and mold #. Now I made my own and did them to about 2.5 grams. Its actually very easy. You don't need a lathe or drill press. You just need an 11/16 & 3/4 socket, sandpaper, and tape. Not much balancing needed either. I hope someone does buy them in our council and they get through that way my son can feel that much better knowing he made his and beat store bought stuff from a lathe.
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Bizarre Behavior #2 - also negative

Post by gpraceman »

sdupont1 wrote:Now I made my own and did them to about 2.5 grams. Its actually very easy. You don't need a lathe or drill press. You just need an 11/16 & 3/4 socket, sandpaper, and tape. Not much balancing needed either.
It is great to see a low tech way to accomplish what one would normally think could only be achieved by using expensive equipment. Great idea!
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Post Reply