Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

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pack529holycross
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Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by pack529holycross »

Ok... its obviously late / early. But I have some questions.


What would happen to a car's performance if you introduced graphite or any other dry lubrication into a wheel bore that had been prepped with liquid lubrication>?


If the answer is that it would have a negative effect ( the answer Im hoping for ), then would you agree that it could be considered an effective deterrent to people trying to pass off web lube cars at the inspection table by requiring graphite application ( or at a minimum the presence of graphite ) in the presence of the final impounding team?

My thought is that if it is known that the lack of the presence of graphite on your car would be considered a redflag to the race crew, and as a result your car must be graphited in their presence, someone would really need to be oblivious to even try to run the gauntlet. Additionally this standard requirement would help along those "barely down the track" entries to avoid embarrassment.

Thoughts?

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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by Darin McGrew »

This year, we provided graphite and Krytox 100 at a "lube and mount wheels and axles" table the night of registration. The staff at the registration and weigh-in table asked everyone whether they had lubricated their wheels. That works pretty well to help avoid unlubricated cars.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by davem »

Graphite on a Krytox lubed car will slow it down.

Here's an old thread where our Krytox cars were slowed down just from the graphite on the track...let alone intentionally applying it to the wheel.

viewtopic.php?t=3649&highlight=
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by woodworx »

Why would you want to do that? Graphite is messy and fouls the track as well as the cars the racers and everything near it. Krytox is clean and when applied properly has no negative efffects on the track or the facility that the race is held at.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by pack529holycross »

woodworx wrote:Why would you want to do that? Graphite is messy and fouls the track as well as the cars the racers and everything near it. Krytox is clean and when applied properly has no negative efffects on the track or the facility that the race is held at.

Negative effects are not the subject of my thread - insuring that the rules in place are enforceable at check in is the subject. To that end, it is a factual statement that a properly oiled wheel has the appearance of having NO lubrication present around the axle and wheel bore. Because of this, the LACK of a presence is a tip off. Because of THIS, I was considering methods for communicating deterrance out into the competitors pool.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by Mr. Slick »

From my understanding, the graphites with the additives that are common in Pinewood Derby Racing are designed as thin film lubricants for low pressure applications. That means that if you see graphite there is too much. Hence the performance improvement when you spin in the graphite - you are actually helping the bond and getting rid of the extra. At inspections you would usually be able to see the "overspray" on areas that don't need it.

Putting a dry lube on right before racing is detrimental since the car will be "working in" the graphite for the first several races before getting to optimal speed.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by Darin McGrew »

pack529holycross wrote:Thoughts?
And here I thought you were asking for our comments about what you has posted...
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by PWD_addict »

It would slow the cars down, as witnessed by several on this board. As an inspector, if I don't see graphite, I ask if they have lubricated their car. If they ask, "Lubricate?", I offer to show the boy how to lube the car. Haven't had the isse of someone using oil. On every car that gets inspected by me, you can see some graphite. (Oil isn't allowed in our races). That isn't a rule, however. The rule is just that dry lubricant must be used.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by mbb »

Some lube up at home, and break it in, and then show up and dont have to bother with lubing up again. The car is slower if the graphite is not broken in beforehand. Most cars that have graphite are covered in it, fingerprints, smudges, all over inside of wheel.

This too can be faked. I have heard of people carefully putting graphite all over an oiled car to make it look legit. With an airbrush you could even paint the gray on the car body near the wheels, etc.

But, really , just look on the wheel under the axle head. You can see if there is really graphite there.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by Ricerocket00 »

My question would be: why not just allow oils? They are cleaner, and some league racers who do quite well still use graphite over oil. Just a thought. Some oils still do fine when mixed with graphite, I hear, althought I haven't tried it yet.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:To that end, it is a factual statement that a properly oiled wheel has the appearance of having NO lubrication present around the axle and wheel bore. Because of this, the LACK of a presence is a tip off. Because of THIS, I was considering methods for communicating deterrance out into the competitors pool.
Well, exactly how is your lubrication rule written?

Dry lubes only?

Graphite only?

What about silicone? That goes on wet, but then dries as the carrier evaporates and it can be considered a dry lube. You would not be able to see the lube. So, if your rules state "graphite only", then no problem. Silicone would be a prohibited lube.

However, if it is a "dry lube only" rule, then silicone should be allowed. Though, by your proposal, your judges would be forcing them to introduce graphite into a legally lubed car.

After the race, that rule should really be looked at. The arguments about prohibiting liquid lubes are weak at best and are preventable (over application is easily caught at check-in). I've seen more fouling on the track due to liberally applied graphite and none due to liquid lubes.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by TAL »

pack529holycross wrote:
Thoughts?
Hehehehehe :lol:

IMO #1. Some break-in time (Runs) would be required for maximum performance with useing graphite. So this being any one that done a good clean job while adding graphite and did their home work in studying/testing graphite break-in would in some sense be punished by requireing visual presence of grahite.

#2. While on the other hand a proper oil can be used for lube and neatly done with actually doseing the presence of graphite on the outer parts of the wheel giving the illusion that the wheel is lubed with graphite.

#3. I think the whole wet lube thing was eventually added for the purpose of people overly lubing wheels with heavier oils and wet substances that where people had no idea how to build a car and were trying anything to gain an advantage.
Keep in mind that a wheel that is improperly oiled with krytox or nyoil can actually be a disadvantage to that particular car.

#4. In a lot of cases both graphite and oils both have advantages and disadvantages.
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by mbb »

I agree graphite fouls tracks horribly. Aluminium tracks should be wiped down with methanol (denatured alcohol) on a rag to clean and remove the graphite periodically. Funny, that also would remove oils too just fine.

For oils to work, they have to be used very sparingly, so getting it all over the track is just a load of [junk].
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by grifflew »

We had a situation with oil at our District Derby. The rules allowed only dry lubricants, ie: graphite/moly, and were inspected at check in as usual. When running the race, a car was found to have "wet" wheels, the tread surface was covered with some type of oil. The only thing we can think of is, 1. The wheel bores were filled with oil that leaked out during the first run of the car (doubt it) or somehow in the on-deck circle dad applied oil. There was so much it was running down the track. We had to stop the race, clean the track and unfortunately for the Scout, DQ his car. When confronted, the dad said it was "water" :doh:

We restarted the race, ran a few heats and found another one! Same thing again, stopped the race, cleaned the track and DQ'ed the car. This time the dad admitted it.

In the first case, the Scout was a Webelos, they knew better, the second case was a Tiger so who knows. We never ran into that before. :(
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Re: Outsmarting the mavericks at the check in

Post by Stan Pope »

grifflew wrote:... There was so much it was running down the track. We had to stop the race, clean the track and unfortunately for the Scout, DQ his car. When confronted, the dad said it was "water" :doh:

We restarted the race, ran a few heats and found another one! Same thing again, stopped the race, cleaned the track and DQ'ed the car. This time the dad admitted it.

In the first case, the Scout was a Webelos, they knew better, the second case was a Tiger so who knows. We never ran into that before. :(
The sad thing is that applying that much oil would have hurt their performance. Somehow risking DQ to make your car slower doesn't make much sense to me!

With that in mind, it is essential that you not only note that the lubrication attempt has occurred, but you must also assure that the person who did so is correctly identified. (I think that you did that, BTW.) "Squirting" someone else's wheels (and getting away with it) is a win-win tactic! :(
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