Oil

[Teeeman]

The Council race last year subjected "stand out" candidates to a tear down inspection.
Oil, explicitly illegal, was found in the "breakaway" group.

No way yet to inspect for it identified.

Request for a rule change to allow it... less mess, fair playing field.. denied.


"Too Messy" logic offered by folks who know little about PWD.

Got a huge burr under my saddle now...

what to do?


-T

[Stan Pope]

After racing is the wrong time to decide if a car is qualified to race. So, request reconsideration with the observation that, "If the oil can only be detected by 'teardown', then it is 'obviously not too messy'!"

To make this work, you must include an inspection station early in the sequence that assesses the "messiness" issue. Require that all lubricant (oil, or graphite or otherwise) that is visible on the exposed surfaces of the car (wheel or body) be fully removed before proceeding through the remainder of inspection. Secondly, the racing pit should have something like paper towels for the cars to sit on while waiting to race. The paper towels should be inspected periodically (e.g., when the car is picked up to race a heat) for signs of lubricant seepage. Finally, the cars should be checked visually as they approach the starting line for presence of lubricant on the wheels. Lubricant found can result in two actions: DQ the car or require that the exposed lubricant be effectively removed (e.g., wiped down).

Not only does this keep oil off the track, it also keeps graphite off the track!

[pack529holycross]

I would tell you to direct your rules committee to provide evidence that Graphite is not messy. I would tell you to direct your rules committee to use a "cleanliness" standard to determine if Graphite even comes close to meeting that standard. After 3 years of event planning, I find no evidence to suggest that Graphite is clean - period. The arguement that Oil is messy is an incomplete definition. I would tell you to direct your rules committee to provide evidence that the cars with Oil were messy during the event. Where is the excess oil? Was there oil found on the track? Cars? Hands? Floor? Tables? Then ask... er... how much graphite was on the track/cars/hands/floor/tables by the end of the event? I would ask that same committee to run a white towel down the length of the track midway during the event and determine if it is Oil or Graphite that is picked up by the towel.

The arguement that Oil is messy is a misnomer -- Oil , APPLIED IN REDICULOUS AMOUNTS, is messy. Oh wait.... you can simply remove the word Oil and replace it with.. you guessed it... graphite: Graphite, applied in rediculous amounts, is VERY MESSY.

Then you can direct your Rules Committee to this product:

Cammie #888 - companies that make plastic items with a mold, spray this ( and products like it ) into the mold to insure the piece comes out after the injection process - it sprays on , but is not wet to the touch after its sprayed on.

The bottom line is that the ORIGINAL prohibition surrounding oil was it's ability to soften plastic, therefore compromising the performace of the wheels. Modern Lubrication simply no longer does this. It is time that Rules committees ( Like I had to do ) come to the realization that if a car can go an entire EVENT without detection of oil, then the premise that Oil is a problem for performace is,,, patently disproved by the very activity that REQUIRED a tear down to detect it in the first place.... DER!


Nicholas.


PS - our 2010 rules state as follows:


LUBRICATION– When used in excess or incorrectly, some types of lubricants may foul the track for optimal racing performance of other PWD cars. Applied CORRECTLY, liquid lubrication has the same performance qualities as dry lubricants such as graphite or powdered Teflon "white lube". Careful consideration should be given as to the decision to use either type of lubrication. BE ADVISED that your PWD entry will be inspected on race day to insure that lubricants are not applied in such a way that they have the potential to foul the track or the performance of other cars, and lubricants may only be applied within the designated “PIT AREA”. This area will have protective tarps to prevent graphite or oil from staining and damaging the carpeting within the Event Venue. Silicone Lubricants with a “dry surface” result are also recommended:

Camie #888 SILICONE RELEASE AGENT & LUBRICANT
5107 NyOil II 2.0 oz Bottle
5106 Krytox 100 0.25 oz Bottle

[dna1990]

I agree that Oil is no longer a messy or an negative impact to plastics. And would encourage Packs to make the switch. One resistance in our pack is simple cost, but that is another story.

My question comes from a racer point of view - if a race didn't prohibit oil, but you knew that the majority of racers would be using good ol graphite anyway...would using oil tend to pick up graphite from the track and be counterproductive?

[Darin McGrew]

My question comes from a racer point of view - if a race didn't prohibit oil, but you knew that the majority of racers would be using good ol graphite anyway...would using oil tend to pick up graphite from the track and be counterproductive?

For the Krytox 100 that we use, I would think that if there is enough oil that it would "tend to pick up graphite from the track", then there is too much oil. It's an ultra-low viscosity thin-film lubricant, so proper application involves wiping off as much as you can using a soft cloth.

[FatSebastian]

I agree that Oil is no longer a messy or an negative impact to plastics. And would encourage Packs to make the switch.

The "official" rule-out-of-the-box is that "only dry lubricant is permitted." I wonder if this is an obstacle to the acceptance of liquid lubes, such that removing it from the Grand Prix PWD kit instructions might help the cause.

[dna1990]

Probably covered elsewhere...but can Krytox/NyOil be applied effectively with wheels on?

Darin's reminder to wipe down, makes me think no.

One pack obstacle may be - is not everyone comes with any graphite, and so applying some in and spinning the wheel is easy enough to accomodate on check-in night. If we switched to oil-allowed...I think I would want to make it available to all. If you could buy it at any local store, then no - but in this case I could not expect everyone to order a bottle for 8 drops worth.

I am willing to buy and share, but if it can't apply it at check-in...makes it hard.

[Darin McGrew]

On registration night, we always have pit crew tables set up: one to help with weight adjustments, and one to help mount wheels and axles (which includes lubrication). The registrar asks everyone whether their wheels and axles have been lubricated, and sends anyone without lubrication to the wheels and axles table. We have traditionally provided graphite, but that can create a mess. To avoid the mess, we started to provide liquid lubricants. Last year was our first year providing Krytox 100. I've still got plenty left for this year, and for next year, and for the year after that, and...

[gpraceman]

Probably covered elsewhere...but can Krytox/NyOil be applied effectively with wheels on?

Darin's reminder to wipe down, makes me think no.

I have heard of people applying oil lubes with the wheels on and then using compressed air to blow out the excess. While not many have an air compressor lying around the garage, one of those small cans of compressed air might do the trick just as well (hadn't tried it myself, but it may work). You would then need to wipe off any of the oil that got onto the outsides of the wheels and car bodies so you would not "foul" the track.

[3 Cub Dad]

Just to weigh in with my two cents worth

I think a LOT of us tend to forget who these races are supposed to be for. I would submit that less than 1-2% of the PWD racers nation wide would know what Nye Oil or Krytox is, let alone how to apply it. Notice I said racers, not dads or leaders.

I've been District Race Chairman for multiple races, and pack race chairman for more. Despite having workshops where we have stations to cut out the car, prep the axles, prep the wheels, and adjust weight; we've STILL had multiple cars show up that barely make it down the track or don't even finish.

I've run Districts where the rules CLEARLY state no oils, and the car shows up with wheels visibly coated in oil. For the KIDS race, what difference does it make? The application of Krytox and Nyeoil is critical. Too much is worse than almost none at all. Darin, do you just hand the kid the bottle of oil and so go at it? I highly doubt it. You have an ADULT do it for them. The application of a dry lubricant is much more straightforward.

Nicholas, yes there is some graphite shedding. Even when applied correctly there will be some shedding. The difference is that a car driving across a super thin film of graphite that can only be removed by wiping does not affect the performance of the car riding across the film like hitting even a single drop of oil on the track would. Not only for that run but for subsequent runs of that car because there would be no damage evident, so no one would inspect the car, it would simply slow down and lose because of the improper application of oil by some other dad? Simply by looking at the wheel for "dripping" oil does not show improper application. The wheel has to be spun to speed and blown out with higher pressure air. How many problems could that cause? Including damaging cars.

As a side note, I have and do race in the "pro" leagues. And have attended national in-person championship race weekends. These are the races where the top three cars are only separated by 0.005 seconds, CUMULATIVE time, after 6 races. I've seen graphite beat plenty of oil cars to take first place, and I've seen oil beat graphite. Each has it's own proponents.

To paraphrase Stan's line, is the argument for oil for the kids?

Tee, I DO agree with you on how do you inspect for it! We've got the wheel weigher, how do we check for oil???


(let the public flailing begin!)

3CubDad

[pack529holycross]

My perspective is from a "truth in lending" point of view.

The ORIGINAL intent for banning oils was its interaction with plastics - this essentially is non existent today.

The ORIGINAL intent for banning oils was its interaction with wooden tracks - still present when a wooden track is present, but no permanent damage to aluminum tracks.

The ORIGINAL intent for banning oils was its "messyness" factor -- graphite is not, in my experience, a lubricant that has the ability to eliminate this "messyness" factor in any way, shape or form.

I personally would say that after an entire Council event was run with 4 cars with applied oil lubricants, any of the "reasons" that those cars were disqualified were not present, non existent, and did not surface during the event.

It is because of this that we are reversing the ban on any specific TYPE of lubricant, and replacing the rule with a ban on IMPROPERLY or EXCESSIVELY applying your axle lube, regardless of the TYPE you use.

Simplifies Inspection - messy or not?
Simplifies Enforcement - left residue on the track or not?
Simplifies Construction - use what YOU feel is best, but use it correctly

[Stan Pope]

...

It is because of this that we are reversing the ban on any specific TYPE of lubricant, and replacing the rule with a ban on IMPROPERLY or EXCESSIVELY applying your axle lube, regardless of the TYPE you use.

Simplifies Inspection - messy or not?
Simplifies Enforcement - left residue on the track or not?
Simplifies Construction - use what YOU feel is best, but use it correctly

Excellent!

[Darin McGrew]

Darin, do you just hand the kid the bottle of oil and so go at it?

Of course not. But we didn't do that with graphite either.

You have an ADULT do it for them.

No, we have them do it with an adult. There's a big difference. And in that regard, it's the same as when we used graphite.

The application of a dry lubricant is much more straightforward.

In my experience, they're about the same, except that there's less mess with Krytox 100. The details are different, but the kids are just as involved in the process, and an adult still needs to walk them through the steps involved.

[Darin McGrew]

Despite having workshops where we have stations to cut out the car, prep the axles, prep the wheels, and adjust weight; we've STILL had multiple cars show up that barely make it down the track or don't even finish.

We have fewer cars that don't reach the finish line now than when I started. I think the big change was when we started providing drill presses at our workshops. We cut the head off an extra axle, lock the axle in the chuck, and have the kids use the drill press to press the spinning axle into the slots of their blocks. (This step is done with the uncut block, making it easier to keep the block square with the drill press table.)

No, it doesn't guarantee perfect alignment, but the average kid ends up with pretty good alignment, and we have fewer cases of bad alignment. It also makes it easier to insert the axles when the car is finished, which helps eliminate certain kinds of accidents.