Race to Determine Overall Pack Champion

[MT Pockets]

As I've mentioned in another thread, I'm the PWD chair for our Pack this year. Last year we ran all the heat and dens, determined first and second in each den. Then (I think) they used the top 8 times to seed a bracket to determine the overall pack grand champion.

The first thing that I want to do is to award the top 3 in each den a trophy, instead of the top 2. What I'm not clear on is the rational behind taking the top 8 times, running them to determine the overall Pack champion...My thinking is that it would make more sense to determine the first place winners in each den, Tiger, Wolf, Bear, and Webelos I, then run them to determine the pack champ.

To me taking the top 8 would probably include some of the 2nd place finishers, correct? therefore the potential that someone who may have placed second in den could possibly be pack champion?

Then again maybe I'm just confused? I'm certain the great pineheads on here will steer me straight!

MT Pockets

[Stan Pope]

No, you are not confused ... at least not on this issue!

Now, if you are racing times instead of head-to-head, then you have another question to answer: Do you discard the den heat times?
If the track is stable throughout the day (not bumped, for instance), then including den times and finals times in the average produces more representative times.

If you ran fewer heats per car in the finals than in the den races, then accuracy suffers.

[FatSebastian]

What I'm not clear on is the rational behind taking the top 8 times...

Does every racer compete against every other racer in the Pack, or do cars race against their den-mates for a shot at the finals? The 3rd place Webelos may be much faster than the 1st-place Tiger, so picking the faster cars in the pack makes the final race a competition over which cars are fastest, rather than which cars advanced facing possibly weak competition within their den.

[MT Pockets]

Since I wasn't involved at this level last year, I don't really know exactly how it was done. I pretty sure the racing was by den to determine the 1,2, in each den. I just found the rule and info they gave out last year.
It states:
"After the heat races, the top 8 times overall will be seeded 1 v 8, 2 v 7 and so on. We will have a single-elimination race-off to determine our Pack Grand Champion"

Does this sound like the best way to go?

[dna1990]

Are you using times or place/points?

I can only offer what we tried this year, we use times. Pick top 1 car from each rank, plus the next top four times regardless of rank. So each rank is guaranteed one spot, but in the case where you have a very close second (or third) place finisher in the ranks...they still get a show at the pack final.

The pack final starts over with blank slate, we ignore times accumulated during the day. Of the 8 car final, only the top finisher means anything and is awarded pack champ.

Each rank still recieves 1st thru 3rd. Now we also 'bump up' the rank from which the pack champ comes from. Meaning is the pack champ is a Bear, then we award 1st thru 3rd Bear trophies to the 2-4 finishers from the main races. In other words, our pack champ does not also get a trophy for the rank level.



We added the four fastest non-rank winners this year. Before the pack final was always just top one from each rank. This was done to give that very close second place racer another shot. Plus people tend to like to seeing more cars in the repeat. The downside is that 7 of those finalists will get nothing more than what ever they achived in the rank level race, well they get the chance to race again.

There are lots of ways to create a final. When running by times, it is usually not 'needed' as the fastest cars should theoretically already be discovered. But spectators and racers alike, like a grand final of some sort.

[FatSebastian]

"We will have a single-elimination race-off to determine our Pack Grand Champion." Does this sound like the best way to go?

This arrangement may be problematic if one of your lanes is slower / faster than the other.

I like dna1990's suggestion of running a mix den champs and fast cars within some kind of lane rotation scheme.

[MT Pockets]

So building on what dna1990 does, we would essentially be starting a brand new race with entries that include #1 in each den Tiger, Wolf, Bear, WEBelos I. then look at the stats from the previous race and enter in the next 4 top times overall, generate a new race schedule and run'em just like a normal race, am I getting it in my think skull?

If it should happen this way, part of me thinks to let little Johnny keep his first place trophy from the den race, and the Grand Champion trophy, after all, he did win both fair and square. again, I may be over thinking the obvious...

MT

[dna1990]

Yes, our finals is a 'new' race made up of the 4 or 8 or whatever top racers you want to include. It is a standard PerfectN schedule and raced for times.

Note, that I didn't see a direct way for GPRM to directly do such a finals with top 1 by rank, plus next top 4 by whole pack. So I did the standard New Round Grand Finals, Top 1 from each rank first. Then went back manually and selected Grand Finalist checkbox on the next four racers, based on a the All Standings report. Then scheduled the Grand Finals. Hope that makes sense.

[Rukkian]

I personally think that they should keep the trophy, as most kids know that if they weren't the first place, and only got that trophy due to the true number one getting a better trophy, that it isn't truly first place.

[FatSebastian]

part of me thinks to let little Johnny keep his first place trophy from the den race...

[Darin McGrew]

I personally think that they should keep the trophy, as most kids know that if they weren't the first place, and only got that trophy due to the true number one getting a better trophy, that it isn't truly first place.

Yep. Our overall champion receives a ribbon, with the understanding that he/she already received a trophy for taking first place the the age-based division race.

[gpraceman]

Note, that I didn't see a direct way for GPRM to directly do such a finals with top 1 by rank, plus next top 4 by whole pack. So I did the standard New Round Grand Finals, Top 1 from each rank first. Then went back manually and selected Grand Finalist checkbox on the next four racers, based on a the All Standings report. Then scheduled the Grand Finals. Hope that makes sense.

That's the way to do it.

[MT Pockets]

That sounds like the way I would like to do it this year. So I have the software, but not the track or timer. Is there a way for me to "simulate" a race by entering in a roster and manually selecting a finish order. It would be neat to sort of run through the scenario before race day to "practice"...I just installed the software and just starting to poke around in there...

[dna1990]

GPRM? If so, it will allow Manual Results with no timer or hardware setup needed. I do this alot at (um work) when I need to test a scenario or just 'practice' using the software.

The last few versions even have a TestData button to randomly throw in some times, so you don't have to type as much.

I might suggest tho for testing creating a final round - is to backup the datafile after you have your heat times input. That way you can restore and try another final round progression without simulating a whole race again.