2012 Revised Rules

[rpcarpe]

Lemme get this straight - removing the 2nd hub step HELPS the car go FASTER. So it's prohibited??
It's one of the easiest things a Cub can do, helps him go faster, teaches him about friction, and hopefully sells more tools at the Scout store... so let's not allow it.

My main thought is to TEACH THE KIDS! Help them have a positive experience. Not to tell them 'No, you can't do that because it makes the car faster'.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

[3 Cub Dad]

Lemme get this straight - removing the 2nd hub step HELPS the car go FASTER. So it's prohibited??
It's one of the easiest things a Cub can do, helps him go faster, teaches him about friction, and hopefully sells more tools at the Scout store... so let's not allow it.

My main thought is to TEACH THE KIDS! Help them have a positive experience. Not to tell them 'No, you can't do that because it makes the car faster'.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Rpcarpe,

No, the reason that it is prohibited is not because it helps the car go faster, the reason that it is prohibited is that it is the leading indication of illegal lightend wheels, purchased off the internet, and is INCREDIBLY easy to spot at inspection. Show me a 9 or 10 year old kid that has gone on-line with his personal credit card to buy a set of $30 wheels to win a $15 plastic trophy. If they had that ability, they'd be buying X-box games, not wheels.

My cubs can, and have, created wheels under a gram each, starting with the wheels out of the box, and no I don't have a $500 mini lathe. Should those razor wheels be allowed in a scout race? Seriously??? $500 mini lathe for a scout race for a $15 plastic trophy??? Let the Derby run with "anything goes" for a couple of years and watch the participation rate drop to just the few DADS who want to race each other. The goal of the Derbys is participation, learning, growing, sharing, and yes, some competition too. Leave the $15 axles, $30 wheels, $500 mini lathe, carbon fiber bodies, delron rail guides, titanium drill blank axles, $200 e-bay cars and wind tunnel testing to the Leagues with the other Pineheads, (which I proudly declare myself to be a member of both!), where they belong.

We had our pack derby this weekend. We have a mid-sized pack of over 50 kids. Our participation rate was near 99%, with another 20 entries into the parent/sibling race. I have another thread on here about it. But long story short, my youngest son had the absolute fastest car there, 12 for 12 wins, but due to some inconsistencies with the laser gate, was ranked 3rd in the final. While he was disappointed and upset, he handled with a grace and maturity that I'm not sure I would have and better than a lot of adults I see at district and other races. Whether it's Cub Scouts, Awana, Royal Rangers, the goal is pretty much the same. What are we trying to teach? How to turn a plastic wheel on a lathe or how to grow up to be a mature, sound young man?

That 3rd place trophy means more to me than all the District Champion trophies in the house.

Life is full of rules. Even if nobody else is on the road, and your sportscar is designed to take that turn at 90mph, the posted speed limit is the posted speed limit, and the judge doesn't care if you know how to drive that fast or not.

No, not everyone wins. Not everyone gets a trophy. As we tell our kids when they whine that brother got to do this, or sister got to do that, life is not always fair. Every competition in life has rules. NASCAR governs just about every nut and bolt on the car. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game. I KNOW that I can build a car to beat just about and SCOUT built car.

JMHO

3 Cub Dad

[idpwdnut]

What are we trying to teach? How to turn a plastic wheel on a lathe or how to grow up to be a mature, sound young man?

Can't both be done. Cant one say "What are we trying to teach? How to prep a wheel/polish an axle/drill a axle hole/tune a car etc or how to grow up a be a mature, sound young man?

3 Cub Dad, you have a good point, but I do not want to be the one to decide what a father/son decide is the best skill to develop or the way to develop it. Each team has it strenghs and weakness, and it is awesome when those teams come together to strenghen each other weakness. That is what make Derby Talk so great!

That 3rd place trophy means more to me than all the District Champion trophies in the house.

I understand exactly how you feel. I have experienced it with my own son on more that one occassion. And for me it is made even that much sweeter by all the work and learning that we have put into it. My son now has skills that he developed at the same time I developed mine, we learned together, and no place trophy can replace that. I bet you have that same feeling too.

[rpcarpe]

That 3rd place trophy means more to me than all the District Champion trophies in the house.

I understand exactly how you feel. I have experienced it with my own son on more that one occassion. And for me it is made even that much sweeter by all the work and learning that we have put into it. My son now has skills that he developed at the same time I developed mine, we learned together, and no place trophy can replace that. I bet you have that same feeling too.[/quote]

I know exactly what that magic is, and it's what we shoot for every year, every car, every Cub.

[FatSebastian]

Your first comment was that it didn't "substantially" reduce the weight. How do you define "substantial"? 5%? 10%? 20%? 50%? Removing the hub is a weight reduction in the neighborhood of 4%.

Well, because you specifically asked for a personal interpretation, there is no need to argue that response, as it was indeed personal. With that said, of course these rules may be flawed to a degree; for example, the wheel's mass is less critical than the wheel's mass moment of inertia (MOI) (which factored into my personal interpretation of the meaning of "substantial" as it relates to mass removed near the hub).

...the attempt to over-simplify rules to save ink...

The motivations for preferring abbreviated (not necessarily "overly simplified") rules were elaborated before. "Saving ink" for its own sake was not an acknowledged motivator.

So now the reader has to attempt to discern the "context".

Of course! Some understanding of context is always required. For example, the weight limit is specified in ounces. We know from "context" that we aren't talking about fluid ounces because we are talking about a solid object. It's not a troy ounce because we aren't apothecaries. It's not a Spanish, Dutch-metric, or Chinese-metric ounce, because BSA stands for Boy Scouts of America. Rather, we presume from "context" that it is a reference to an international avoirdupois ounce, which is the most commonly used weight unit of ounce in the USA.

FS, [...] you did inadvertently make my point that sometimes the attempt to over-simplify [...] can cause more problems.

Increased subjectivity and/or decreased clarity within abbreviated rules is a reasonable concern in general; however, in this specific case "...substantially reduce..." was offered to replace "...in an attempt to reduce..." To me, this proposed substitution did not present an over-simplification that proved to "cause more problems"; rather, it merely maintained subjectivity already present in *5J's* rules (and which traces back to the Northern Star Council rules set).

*5J's* asked for a reduction in wording which still maintained semblance of preexisting intent (good or bad). IMO, "...substantially reduce..." clarified that a subjective determination would still need to be made by the inspector -- yet without mandating that the inspector must first get inside the mind of the builder to presume what was being "attempted". Of course it would be for *5J's* district to decide whether the proposed alterations offer any improvements, but we never received closure from *5J's* on what rules language was finally adopted.

[FatSebastian]

I going to take a good look and do an A/B comparison this weekend.

Other than keeping the stock wheelbase, whatever eventually happened with your effort to revamp the rules? Are these the 2012 rules (at first glance these appear no different than the 2011 rules).

[*5 J's*]

Below are the revamped rules. Consider that this was a group endeavor and not my choice alone.

GENERAL:
The race is open to all registered Cub Scouts in the Abnaki District, including Webelos having recently crossed over the Boy Scouts. In these rules the Scouts will be referred to as “Drivers”, parents/guardians will be referred to as “Pit Crew”.

The top five finishers from each individual Pack Pinewood Derby are eligible to compete in the District Pinewood Derby. If a racer cannot attend the District Derby the driver may have another scout race his car or an alternate driver may be chosen to represent the pack or district. This will be left to the respective Pack’s to decide. Adults will not be allowed to race a car in the event that the youth cannot attend the event.

All cars competing in the 2012 District Pinewood Derby must have been made for a 2012 Pack Pinewood Derby. Cars made for any previous year pinewood derby are not acceptable. Cars that were purchased completed may not be used. Cars may not be sent to third party facilities for tuning or other performance enhancements.

CAR SPECS:
Pinewood derby cars will be built from an Official BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit. Replacement parts must be purchased as unmodified BSA parts; modified wheels and axles from other suppliers are prohibited. Decorative items such as steering wheels, drivers, spoilers, decals and interior details are permissible as long as the finished car meets the rules and specifications. Cars should not advertise alcohol or tobacco.
A. Body - The main body structure must be made of the wood block from the official kit.
B. Width - Not to exceed 2 3/4 inches
C. Length - Not to exceed 7 inches
D. Weight - Not to exceed 5.0 ounces
E. Height - Not to exceed 4 3/4 inches
F. Center Rail Width Clearance – Must clear center guide rails, typically no less than 1-3/4 inches minimum.
G. Bottom Clearance - Must clear center guide rails, typically no less than less than 3/8 inches from track surface.
H. Wheelbase – The use of the pre-cut axles locations in the official pinewood car block is recommended but not required. The use of axle holes is allowed, however the nominal wheelbase of 4 3/8 inches with a dimension of 15/16 inch from one end of the block and a dimension of 1 11/16 inches from the other end of the block must be maintained. The axles on the finished car will be no further than 6 1/16 inches from either end of the block with the two front wheels positioned directly across the body from each other and the two rear wheels positioned directly across from each other.
I. Front End – Depending upon the track, the front of the car may rest against a short starting pin. Therefore it is required that the front bottom of the car which rests on the pin is no higher than 1" above the track. The front end must be at least ½ inches wide in the middle. No part of the car can extend beyond the starting pin.
J. Miscellaneous -
The following items are PROHIBITED:
• Starting devices, or propellants of any kind
• Electronic or lighting devices that interfere with the race electronics.
• Liquids, wet paint, oil, sticky substance, or powders of any kind (other than axle lubrication)
• Glass or excessively fragile parts
• Springs, bearings, bushings, washers, sleeves, hubcaps or inserts attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.
• Loose objects on car
• Magnets
• Metal, pointed, sharp, and/or jagged parts or attachment that may contact any part of the track.

WHEELS:
Only Official BSA Grand Prix wheels are allowed. The purchase of colored or replacement wheels is allowed provided they are unmodified official BSA parts. The purchase of polished or machined wheels from other suppliers is prohibited. Outer wheel surface may be lightly sanded or shaved to remove imperfections but must not be reshaped in any way in an attempt to lighten the wheel, minimize tread contact, or alter aerodynamics. Coning the hubs and truing the inside tread edge is allowed. A minimum wheel diameter of 1.170” and width of 0.360” must be maintained and will be measured at check-in. All lettering, both inside and outside, must remain and be visible. The fluting and other BSA markings on the outside wheel area must remain visible. Tread surface must be flat and parallel to the wheel bore. You may add material to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing (glue, fingernail polish, tape) of the wheel, but no material may be removed. You may not reduce the diameter of the bore. Please note: There are aftermarket modified wheels that are LIGHTENED. This is usually done by turning the wheels on a lathe and removing material from the inside of the wheel. These wheels are NOT allowed and EASILY RECOGNIZED at inspection. Cars with these wheels will not be permitted to race.

The following are PROHIBITED:
• Rounding of wheel edges
• Grooving, H-cutting or V-cutting
• Altering of wheel profile
• Drilling sidewalls
• Hollowing, sanding, or otherwise removing or modifying material from inside the wheel
• Wheel covers or hubcaps
There must be at least four wheels on the car, however, it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface. Each wheel must be mounted on an axle, on the outside of the car, in the vertical position, at no more than a 45 degree angle. Each wheel must be attached directly to the car by an axle and spin freely. No part of the car, or any attachment to the car, may be capable of coming into contact with the track other than the wheel(s).

AXLES:
Only Official BSA Grand Prix axles are allowed. The purchase of replacement axles is allowed provided they are unmodified official BSA parts. The purchase of polished or machined axles from other suppliers is prohibited. Axles must not be connected to any device that mechanically alters rotation and spin.

LUBRICATION:
Approved lubricants include (but are not limited to) graphite, Teflon, Nyloil, and Krytox. Over-application of lubricant which results in excessive shedding onto the track is not allowed. Cars will be lubricated before registration/inspection. No other lubricating will be allowed once the car has passed inspection.

INSPECTION:
Each car must pass inspection by the Official Inspection Committee before it may compete. After acceptance only the drivers may handle the cars. Once cars have been registered, weighed, and inspected, they will remain in the custody of the Pack and District Race Officials until the end of the competition. Any driver (including a member of the pit crew) has the right to appeal to the race officials for an interpretation of these rules. The race officials, by majority vote, will be the final interpreters of these rules. However, an interpretation of the rules at the pack level does not necessarily ensure a similar interpretation at the district level. All rulings by the Race Officials at each level of competition will be considered final. The Pack or District Inspection Team will weigh all cars at registration. The readings of the Official Race Scale at each event will be considered final. It is possible scale measurements will differ between the Pack and District Pinewood Derbies. Drivers and their pit crews must be prepared to adjust weight to meet the readings of the Official Race Scale at each level of competition.

REPAIRS:
If a car suffers a mechanical problem (loses an axle, breaks a wheel, etc.) prior to a race the driver or his pit crew will have up to five minutes to fix the car. If a car suffers a mechanical problem after a race, the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes or until the next race to fix the car. If repairs cannot be made in this time frame, the car will be disqualified.

[*5 J's*]

Other than keeping the stock wheelbase, whatever eventually happened with your effort to revamp the rules? Are these the 2012 rules (at first glance these appear no different than the 2011 rules).

The linked to rules are PTC Council rules, yet we have no council race, so the District have their own rules. The revised rules are applicable to the Abnaki District.