This issue has been raised before and thus your concern is not alone.JSG wrote:The downside is that some of the boys who are awarded a first place in their den really didn't finish first...
There are implied qualifications with all such awards; a car could very well finish second and yet come away with "first place" if the faster car was later disqualified. To address the conundrum, one might do well to consider "first place" within a den as an award like gold, silver, and bronze, rather than a official testament of a specific "finish order". (A trophy awarded in finals could just as well be categorized as having earned "zeroth place" for his den, as "zero" comes before one. )
To the general question of "Should a Cub Scout win two trophies?", I would be tempted to generally answer "If he earned them." However, I see no requirement for a boy to carry home two speed awards. The purpose of awards is to acknowledge excellence, and that can be accomplished with a single trophy. If he gets a big "finals" trophy and a smaller "den" trophy, the smaller trophy will not be appreciated as much as if it went to the next Scout in line without any trophy. And as a scouting parent who partially dues pay for awards and whose Scouts win trophies, I would prefer that my child only come home with one speed award for reasons of Pack economy and to reduce his bedroom clutter.
There is also trophies for best of show, But the scout that won a trophy in speed placement can not win a best of show trophy. the trophy is awarded to another scout, if indeed his car was judged and picked for best of show, they go down the list. thats why, in our pack, they have a 1st and 2nd and 3rd pick for best of show in each ranking.
I feel its right only, if the scout wins the fastest of the pack, if you're pack does this too. Not all do fastest of the pack.
Novel approach! But "let's have less racing" is a hard sell. A compromise might still involve having some kind of "finals" race, but forgo (or limit the number of) trophies at that level (certificates or medallions may suffice).Speedster wrote:Easily solved. Do away with it. Let the 1st place finishers be the winners and enjoy their win.
- Master Pine Head
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:01 pm
- Location: Northeast, Illinois
Have any grumblers expressed their preferences regarding future trophy arrangements? (Besides having your kids stay off the track, that is. )JSG wrote:I'm starting to hear a little grumbling from parents that "certain" boys (meaning my boys) tend to dominate and win trophies every year. I want to make an effort to please.
Like to see a picture of that traveling trophy!!!knotthed wrote:Our pack has a fastest of the pack travelling trophy. There are many name plates on it and the fastest of the pack each year gets it till next year and gets their name engraved on one of the tags on it.
I know everyone runs there race different by den etc. The Pack I was in the race everyone together only the Tiger where separated at the end.So Wolfs,Bears,Webelos 1&2 where together when giving out trophies. I see your point for giving out only one trophy to the boys. I do the same thing with my Awana Grand Prix program no one goes home with two trophies. Also if your Scout program has a extra race like the District race & Council race. They only let you do one not both so why not let the next Scout behind him get the trophy. I been to to a lot of derby race in my time and Speed out ranks Design so I would ask the parents which one would he rather have but I would not tell them what place he or she got. Or put in your RULES under Awards stating no will go home with Two trophies and stating that Speed out ranks Design.I been saying that for the past 12 years with my Grand Prix race and not one parents complain once's to me.
FatSebastian wrote:And as a scouting parent who partially dues pay for awards and whose Scouts win trophies, I would prefer that my child only come home with one speed award for reasons of Pack economy and to reduce his bedroom clutter.
I've had three request 3rd place trophies be awarded in the Den races. That's something I've asked for of the committee for 3 years now. I asked each one of them to email the Cubmaster and Committee Chair with that request and they did. Hopefully that and my request for these folks to come to a committee meeting during the planning stages will help that. If I take it even a step further with no boy winning 2 trophies that may go a long way in satisfying some parents.FatSebastian wrote:Have any grumblers expressed their preferences regarding future trophy arrangements? (Besides having your kids stay off the track, that is. )JSG wrote:I'm starting to hear a little grumbling from parents that "certain" boys (meaning my boys) tend to dominate and win trophies every year. I want to make an effort to please.
In this scenario, other than hoping the boys will follow the Cub Scout Promise, there is no guarantee a boy won't say "I was REALLY first in den not you". Maybe the gold, silver & bronze would be a way to get away from 1st, 2nd & 3rd.
I really don't want to give up a "Finals" race. That's the closest racing group of the day and everyone loves it.
- Stan Pope
- Pine Head Legend
- Posts: 6888
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
- Location: Morton, Illinois
Considerations include ...
The difference between 1st and 2nd in the ROC is usually quite small.
ROC takes place after most of the competitors have gone home.
The ROC is more of a "pride thing" than a "trophy thing" ... the competition is retained, the recognition is retained, but the tangible symbol is deemphasized.
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Ya know, we focused on going super fast, because the people running the race back 12years ago, were cheating and playing dumb about it.
But it was so bad, when 40 parents watching see it. Its bad. and they still had attitude about it, when caught.
So heck, ya know, we worked our behinds off, said we were going to be so fast, thaty they couldnt cheat us.
Well ya know, then grumbling comes and more of it. It does not go away. We did work shops, offered anyone and who over to learn and teach them.
Some came, but more than anything they do not. What they are really upset about, is that as a parent, you spent more time on it and more time with your kids on it. Then they did.
Pretty much sums up resentment they have to justify the grumbling. I told them. dont wine, put the time in. come on over ! And things got pretty quite on that front for a few years.
I gave that speach on the microphone to the whole people watching the race, just before the race started.
And I found if they pack does not want to spend the money for more trophies, over to donate or buy them. I think you will find that works well too. For a mear $30 dollars more, ect right around in there. You can get a few more.
- Darin McGrew
- Pine Head Legend
- Posts: 1751
- Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
- Location: Mountain View, CA
+1FatSebastian wrote:To the general question of "Should a Cub Scout win two trophies?", I would be tempted to generally answer "If he earned them."
Our design awards are comparable to our speed awards (both in number and in size), and are completely independent of our speed awards (with winners determined before the racing even starts). It is possible for a very well-made car to earn both a speed award and a design award, and it happens occasionally. If someone wanted more kids to go home with awards, then I'd buy more awards rather than prohibit speed winners from receiving design awards (or vice versa).
As far as multiple speed awards go, the fastest car from each age group moves on to a final "grand champion" race. However, since everyone in the "grand champion" race has already won a trophy (for winning in their own age group), the award for the "grand champion" is a simple blue ribbon. They can hang the ribbon from their trophy if they like.
At the District race this weekend, the top four places in the finals were guaranteed two trophies - the one for the rank race that got them there, and the one for the district final. Didn't hear much grumbling, especially from the recipients.
Interesting note about this year's District trophies: we made them so the Cub could mount his car as a topper (see photo). Or if they wanted a conventional top, the trophy supplier would provide one at no charge.
At the Pack race, there's always a few sad faces from the Cubs who missed out on the trophies. This year, the Cubmaster made them all the same size, with only the plate denoting the place or award. No complaints from the recipients - they knew what it said, and what they'd earned.
I have to qualify this due to my kids always being in the top, but as my pinewood dad career winds down (youngest is now a Web1, so just this year and next at most), I think they should go to who earns them, not try to make everybody feel good getting something they did not earn. One thing I did last year (my first year running it for my pack) was buy medallians for each particpant that they received when they checked in. Each wore them with pride the whole day and were happy to have them. They were cheap (~$2.5 each), and all of the boys liked them. We then had trophies for 1-3 of each den, then took the top 2 from each den and moved to the finals, where we had top 4 places. We also had pack wide 3 place trophies (that were actually nicer than speed) for design awards. Last year we tried limiting design to only boys that got no speed awards, but it was very apparent, as we are a fairly small pack. This year we are limiting, but only for those that win pack speed awards.
I ran a workshop at my dad's garage and actually had a very good turnout. Out of the 10 that went to pack finals, 8 had help from me at the workshop, and the other 2 had very little boy work done. Several first timers had a blast and actually spent quite a bit of time working on their cars. 2 in particular spent 5+ hours at the workshop to pretty much finish their cars. They had a blast working with their parents with me as consultant. I got nothing but postive feedback about the whole race last year, and everybody can't wait to for this year, when in years past, it was just one thing they did, and nobody really got excited.
I guess what I am trying to get to is that personally I think kids appreciate it more when they know they earned it, and just adding more overall trophies, or making sure one kid can't earn more than one drops the value of working hard. I have several kids that realize what it will take and several dads have already started asking me for some tips, which I freely offer to anybody.