kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

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ranman106
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kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by ranman106 »

We had our derby today. My son did well, 2nd in Webelos II and 2nd in Pack. So, thats all for him. Our District allows only 1st place winners to compete. I tried to change this a couple of years ago but alas I was unable to.

We have always had good competiton with a fellow Webelo and his dad. Every year it was always between us or them. Our 1st year, they won it all followed by the next two years of us winning the prize. This year, it was theirs. I have no problem with that at all. In fact, the first race in the Webelos II today was between our sons.

My problem (not my son's) is this: Several hours after the race, I called the other boys father. We always compared notes. Well, this year it turns out that we were beat by a kit car. I call it a kit car because they purchased the low-rider kit, BSA matched speed wheels, and super speed axles from Maximum-Velocity. I'm not knocking Randy, he has great products (the wheels looked fantastic and combined with the axles were extremely FAST). We have used his plans for the past 2 years ourselves.

The difference is this, my son and I WORKED together on his car using the supplied items and I know he will remember the time we spent together preparing and building. Our rules state that the car must be made from the offical BSA Grand Prix kit. The axles slipped through inspection (I was doing the body/wheel/axle inspections) because the last part of the nails were covered in gel type super glue. It's too late to do anything about it now and I besides, I am too tired after working 12 days straight and running a derby.

Like I said, it's my problem not my sons. He is playing with a friend who is sleeping over. My wife says I should get over it :roll:. She needs to watch "Down and Derby" again :lol: :lol: ! I don't know, I just feel cheated. If we had another year, we could plan to crank it up a notch higher but, we won't have that chance. Besides, I plan on going to Districts this year even though my son isn't racing, I have five other boys running!!!!!

So, what are your feelings on this? Is it really different than an eBay car?
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by racerrandy »

Give a man a fish, and you have fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you have fed him for a lifetime.

I think you and your son are the winners, don't forget what the derby is really suppose to be about.

Later,Randy
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by Teeeman »

I wish to not comment on the ethics...

but, can you explain the gel type superglue comment more?

What exactly was done to the bought axles?

I have this mental image of axles being glued to wheels which is not right, so I'm confused...

is this something those of us who build everything from the supplied kits could mimic (if it is a legal way to boost performance)?

This is perhaps what can be gained from the eBay and other trade in supplied parts. There are some proven and very fast parts being sold, it is easy to buy them, but I am interested in stealing their technology (grin!). Those items that can work within the rules of our Pack will be given a LOT of consideration if we can reproduce them in our garage with our limited abilities and tools... make sense?

-Terry
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by gpraceman »

Teeeman wrote:I have this mental image of axles being glued to wheels which is not right, so I'm confused...
I think he meant the the nail ends were not visible due to the glue. Looking at the nail point is one way to determine if they are legal BSA axles, instead of machined pins (like Awana axles).

Our pack requires the nail end to be visible, but that doesn't mean we have to use the slots. We drill our axle holes and then cut our weight pocket so the nail tips stick out into the weight pocket.
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ranman106
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by ranman106 »

gpraceman wrote:I think he meant the the nail ends were not visible due to the glue. Looking at the nail point is one way to determine if they are legal BSA axles, instead of machined pins (like Awana axles).

Our pack requires the nail end to be visible, but that doesn't mean we have to use the slots. We drill our axle holes and then cut our weight pocket so the nail tips stick out into the weight pocket.
You are correct. Our rules will have a clarifiaction for the axle tip exposure next year. We are required to use the precut slots so gel-superglue is a nice way to cloud and cover the axle tip.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by ranman106 »

Teeeman wrote:I wish to not comment on the ethics...
I wish you would.

On my soap box now......

RANT ON -

Is purchasing a kit (even from various vendors) and assembling really any different from buying an eBay car? I know you can say the boy preps and paints the body, assembles the car, weights and aligns it. Therefore it is "scout made". We're talking, what, 2 days max?

What about the bond established between parent/guardian and son, the knowledge gained each year, the character that is developed? Are we saying that it can be bought in a kit with minimal time invested? Then what is different in buying a prebuilt car on eBay?

- RANT OFF

Stepping down from my soap box now.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by HookedOnPine »

This is our second year in the pinewood derby and I have seen the axles you mention. I know they sure sound fast and look tempting but as you say the rules state "must be built from the pinewood derby kit". I think the vast majority of people that frequent this website probably have access to more than one kit. How do you get mold matching wheel sets? Do you spend $40 on a wheel shaver or buy a set already shaved for $15? I have no problem with anyone buying extra or preworked parts as long as they are OFFICIAL PINEWOOD DERBY parts to start with. I'm with you, I wouldn't like it at all if I knew unofficial parts kept my son from advancing. Too much work and preparation go into fine tuning the official parts to be beaten by an engineered part replacement. By covering the tips completely this is a sign to me that deception was intended. Maybe the fact that this was their last year got the better of their judgement, but it was your sons last year too. As you say it is over with now but I think it is a hollow victory for the cheaters. Hopefully the illegal parts will not get through district inspections. Rant on! :x
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by ranman106 »

HookedOnPine wrote: I have no problem with anyone buying extra or preworked parts as long as they are OFFICIAL PINEWOOD DERBY parts to start with. I'm with you, I wouldn't like it at all if I knew unofficial parts kept my son from advancing. Too much work and preparation go into fine tuning the official parts to be beaten by an engineered part replacement. By covering the tips completely this is a sign to me that deception was intended. Rant on! :x
I agree and thank you.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by Stephen's Dad »

When we first started derbying we bought reworked BSA as well as manufactured parts on eBay & the various Randy's we know from here. But we never used any of them. Rather we tested these parts to learn what we could & have tried our best to duplicate those we have been able to.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Stephen's Dad wrote:When we first started derbying we bought reworked BSA as well as manufactured parts on eBay & the various Randy's we know from here. But we never used any of them. Rather we tested these parts to learn what we could & have tried our best to duplicate those we have been able to.
I look at the parts on eBay alot, but can't justify spending the money. I've spent too much money on tools to buy the parts finished!! :mrgreen:

I like to do stuff my self vs. having someone do it for me. How else do you learn? That applies to the kids also. We started their cars yesterday, roughing out the body. I'll be showing them how the file and polish axels, etc. They will do their best and I'll finished if I have to. At least they will know, buy experience, how to do it.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by kcobb »

Randy,

First of all, congratulations to You and Alex on all your races! You guys have made it through Webs and have done fantastic overall! Also, awesome looking car for the last one!

I am disheartened to hear about the way this race ended up afterwards. While these products are out there to purchase, I cannot agree more with Pinedaddy's remarks, "I like to do stuff my self vs. having someone do it for me. How else do you learn?". Furthermore, how else do you teach the knowledge! I have personally purchased speed tires from Randy's MaxV, who God bless him, has really given us a hand in building pinewood derby cars! We used those wheels to study and learn from, then take wheels and try to accomplish the same. However, gluing to hide what you've done pretty much gives away the intent. Irregardless, its' something they have to live with, not you guys. Yall did it right and spent the time together bud. And in the end, that's what it's all about. Years from now, I'm sure all Alex will remember fondly is the time you guys shared building the cars together.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by ronin718 »

I faced the same dilemma when working with my son on his car this year. The matched and prepped prospect with increased performance was SOOO alluring. However, I felt like ranman... buying from anyone is not abiding by the rules. We have the same "out of the box" rules. It's one thing to work the wheels and axles yourself, it's another to buy them already prepped. So integrity won out over the "need for speed".

Our race was also this weekend, and my boy won his pack race, so we obviously did something right.

As for the glue, I use E6000 for axle stability. The nature of it makes it self-leveling, so it's sometimes hard to keep the stuff from running over the tip. So the guy with the bought axles may not have covered the tips intentionally.
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by sporty »

Pre cut kit,

I feel in my own mind or realm of things.

That it is okay to purchase a pre-cut car. I know the rules says use the specific official bsa kit.

However, Until they offer more cars pre-cut. I think this offers parents that dont have the tools to cut out the car.

There is still plenty of work to be done on them.

Now ebay cars, it all depends, if its a cut piece of wood, im okay with that. painted and ready to race, notta.

sporty
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by Teeeman »

ranman106 wrote:
Teeeman wrote:I wish to not comment on the ethics...
I wish you would.
I have to be careful... I am not wanting to attack the vendors.

If the other guy broke your rules, he was wrong to do so and taught his child a horrible lesson.

If everyone followed their rules, their would be no fear of the vendor parts and cars. Some rules might allow use of bought speed parts, our rules certainly don't.

The vendors would pull anything that doesn't sell and quit offering it.

I like having them around to buy tools from, and to get speed tips from.
I got to see a bought car once... I tried to learn all I could from it that I could apply within the scope of our rules... for that, I was thankful to see it.
Had we lost in competition to this car, with our rules, I would have taken polite but firm action to have the car reduced to a exhibition run only... the kid would still have the fun of watching "his" car whoop butt, but he would NOT take the trophy from any of the kids who built their cars as Don Murphy intended.


(I'm done ranting now)


-Terry
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Re: kit cars - not eBay but is it really different!

Post by ranman106 »

Teeeman,

Thanks for the honest response and the response so far from others. I am not attacking the vendors, far from it. I love their products. I have bought the tools, plans, etc. But not wheels or axles. Let me correct that, I did buy one set of speed axles for a WIRL car I made but was not impressed.

I guess I am more on a rant to clear my head. I have no problem with a precut car as long as it is cut from a BSA block (the rules state BSA kit). I have no problem with bought BSA wheels. Again, these are BSA kit. Polished BSA axles, again no problem, BSA kit. But, to buy all three and put together I think leads to the problem and a possible unfair advantage.

We did not know of the non BSA axles until hours after the race. The super glue gel does not run (we have used this to hold our axles as well). It was applied to cover the axles. In our conversation, the father was concerned that they would remove the axles at the District race for inspection and see what they were. He wanted to know should he feel bad.

That just rubs salt in a wound.
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