Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

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murphken
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Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by murphken »

FYI: I have purchased over 200 wheel sets from BSA in the last month. The wheels are of very bad quality: large bores, severe radial and lateral runout, and many other defects. Defect rate is approximately greater than 50% defects.
Apparently, the manufacturer did not change the lot # on the wheel kits: IN0618. This lot # has produced excellent wheels in the past. So, buy lots of wheels and pick through them using a spin test.
Later,
Murph
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Loud2ns »


murphken wrote:FYI: I have purchased over 200 wheel sets from BSA in the last month. The wheels are of very bad quality: large bores, severe radial and lateral runout, and many other defects. Defect rate is approximately greater than 50% defects.
Apparently, the manufacturer did not change the lot # on the wheel kits: IN0618. This lot # has produced excellent wheels in the past. So, buy lots of wheels and pick through them using a spin test.
Later,
Murph
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Awana switched vendors a couple if years ago and the quality went down significantly on the wheels and axles. I wonder if they are both using the same place.

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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Vitamin K »

murphken wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 9:47 am FYI: I have purchased over 200 wheel sets from BSA in the last month.
Wow, Murph, you're really keeping busy in the Derby Game these days, huh? :D
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

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It is a seasonal thing. Kind of fun when the wheels are good! We are a small fish in the big sea of PWD wheels. Side job. We focus on quality. It is probably our last year selling. I am almost to retirement and our focus is on other areas!
I am still waiting from the BSA central office to get back to me on what is going on. On Tuesday, they said that they have an enormous amount of wheels in stock from the latest production. I will let you know what I find out.
I chatted with a couple of league racers and they think that I might have gotten somebody's rejects. The league racers and cutters (wheel vendors) send back the bad ones to BSA. They just put the wheel kits back into stock. I purchased two large lots so I doubt I could have received the returns twice.
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

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Quick update on Wheel Quality. It appears that BSA has a large lot of these wheels. They sent out inquiries to the manufacturer of the wheels. That will not help the situation. The wheel cutters and pro racers will buy a bunch of wheels and send the bad ones back for a refund. Some of the large cutters buy large amounts at one time. Those bad wheels go right back in stock! It is a vicious cycle!
I have purchased wheels from BSA over the years with some interesting outcomes. One time, most of the wheels were #11 molds which is the most frustrating wheel to deal with.
It would be interesting if anyone has input of the quality of wheels. My analysis of the situation is that there are still some good wheels in the current lot of wheels that BSA has. The percentage of good wheels is much lower. Based on the two large lots I had, it is difficult to recommend mold #s. The quality was erratic with no definite pattern.
Right now, I am not buying any more of the current wheel kits from BSA. The local scout shop in Mechanicsburg connected me with another Scout Shop in New York so I am good. I also found some old stock from a large Scout Shop in VA. My wife is going to kill me when the credit card bill shows-up!
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Speedster »

Hello Everyone.
Please forgive my ignorance but I have some questions.
What is the difference between a bad wheel and a good wheel? I know the vendors always have 3 or 4 numbers they recommend as being the best and they are probably the easiest to make better. I have 100 sets of wheels (that's a different story) and some of them are very close to being round. They also are almost balanced. If any wheel is going to be machined by one of the super experts can't a bad wheel made to be as close to perfect as humanly possible. How many other things on a wheel, wobble, bad bore, etc, is considered a bad wheel and can't be used?
Thank you.
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by murphken »

Excessive lateral (side-to-side) runout > Wiggle!
Excessive radial (up-and-down) runout > Wobble!
Extremely large bores (outside of 95% CI range for bore diameter)
Just look at a wheel from mold #11 > that wheel exhibits most of the aspects of a bad wheel
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Speedster »

I agree, some wheels are very bad. Since Derbytalk is directed toward Scout Racing, what info can be offered to help the beginner get some decent wheels without spending much money. Our workshops would have the scout turn his wheels on the runout gauge and then use the worst one for the lifted wheel since we were allowed to run on 3 wheels. The numbers 3, 5, 15 can be purchased for $8.95 plus shipping but that's getting expensive. Buying a lathed wheel is probably illegal for most Scouts.

We offer Troy Thorne"s book, Build a Winning Pinewood Derby Car, for sale for $10.00 and we have paid the shipping. Anyone buying the book is offered additional help. If science is followed every step of the way, the speed of the car might increase enough to win over a Big Bulky car with good wheels.

This was done before the Pandemic. We do have races but no longer do workshops.
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

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Here is a little update on the BSA wheels. I had to go to my local scout shop and buy some more wheels. I purchased 59 sets. The quality was pathetic. The quality issues are numerous. Radial and lateral runout is bad. The bores are not good and are generally larger in diameter. I have to cut a larger mandrel pin to deal with many of the mold numbers. We run with two different lathes with two different mandrels to accommodate small and large bores. Mandrels are cut in the lathe chuck. The mandrel is never removed or modified until the mandrel pin diameter wears-down.
Here is my suggestion on mold numbers but remember the quality of any wheel can vary with the this year's wheels. Remember: I am picky.
Best overall wheels: 1,5,6,7,8,13,15.
Marginal wheels: 11, 12, 14, 16
Hit and Miss: 2,3,4,9,10
Large Bores: 1,7,8,10,11
Narrow Bores: 4,5,6 > 6 is really narrow.
Worst bore quality: 11
Worst overall wheel: 11
Favorite Wheel: 5
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Eagle »

Murph,
Thank you for sharing your findings. I know you go thru a lot to produce higher quality wheels.

I am curious about mold 15. It is listed with best overall, yet is neither large or small bore.
I find that interesting. What makes it better?

I also see mold 8 is now a large bore. That is not how it used to be, right?

Also, I know you cut and sell different colors. Is the data the same for all the different colors?
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by murphken »

#15 tends to be average bore size in general. It is a consistent wheel to cut. Finished wheel diameters are usually close to stock diameter after cutting the tread. The wheel bores tend to "lock smooth" after we complete the bore preparation. Very minimal amount of scrap from this mold #.
I am a Six Sigma Master Black Belt in Statistics and use my skills with my wheels. We get rid of the variation first, then improve the product and/or process.
#8 has been a very consistent wheel over the years and the bore size is a tad big. Little or no radial and/or lateral runout. There is usually an ugly crust on the #8 wheel tread that can easily be removed with abrasive pads, magic eraser pads and finally cotton balls. Just gave away another one of my procedures. Magic eraser pads from Mr Clean work very well.
The old red, blue, yellow, orange wheels are really bad. Resultant wheel diameters is usually around 1.1700" after cutting. I have to use every trick in the book to get the bores to "lock smooth". Scrap rate is high. In general, the wheels will be slower than the new black ones. There are some yellow wheels that are harder than hell in terms of material. These wheels would be really fast on a properly aligned car. If you are looking for colored wheels, I believe that ABC Pinewood still has some sets around. I purchased my colored wheels from him about three years ago and my inventory is getting really low.
Note: You see the information about Mold #11 > I can make wonderful 2 gram wheels out of them if the bores "lock smooth". The time to complete all the cuts is too long right now to make a finished product that will pass our quality standards. Still, it shows that some bad wheels can be made to run fast.
Note: #1, #5, and #13 wheel bores easily "lock smooth" after bore preparation and outer thread cut.
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Loud2ns »

Magic eraser pads also work well to clean excess graphite off of wheels before a race. It also removes the buildup of graphite on the touching surfaces after a race. If allowed, this would be good to do before a finals, or district race.

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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Eagle »

More great info.

What I was curious about Murph, assuming your wheel info posted in this thread is on the 2019 and newer wheels, was if white, green, pink, purple, and electric blue are the same, similar or different from the info you posted.

Or, are you saying that when you went to the Scout Shop you were able to find 2009-2019 wheels (blue wrappers) and that is what the info for. Got a little confused when you brought up blue, red, yellow and orange which are no longer offered.

And, what may I ask is "lock smooth"?
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by murphken »

The newer colored wheels are "hit and miss". Lot numbers: IN0618. In general, you cannot run these wheels "out of the box" w/o a lathe cut so the car does not pound down the track. Some of these wheel will clean-up at 1.1800". Others, will clean-up at 1.1700" but are out of balance and need a cut on the inside of the wheel to attain balance. I am looking at a nice set of green #15 wheels that cleaned up at 1.1800" right now. In contrast, I am also looking at a set of green #9 wheels that cleaned-up at 1.1700".
"Lock Smooth" is a term I use for an excellent spin during my final spin test validation. If the wheel has decent balance and the bore preparation was successful, the wheels will spin "smooth as silk" on a 0.088" polished rod with a spin of my thumb. No graphite is used during the spin test validation. In addition, I do not put an outside weight around the wheel tread as Stan used to state as a good practice. The result of the spin test validation has to be "locked smooth" before the wheel set goes out the door.
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Re: Poor Quality Wheels from Latest BSA Lot

Post by Eagle »

So, the bore info you posted earlier is black only?
Do you think they use different molds for the colored wheels?
Or, do you think it is the material?

I noticed the colored wheels have quite a lot of flashing on them.
Do you worry mostly about OD because of inspection the wheel min OD?
Do you also keep them over a min weight?
If a racer had to stick to a min weight wheel, but wanted wheels to be smallest possible OD would you cut them different then how you normally do?
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