Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Solenoid start gates make for consistent heat starts.
pwdarchitect
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by pwdarchitect »

They already have this kind of drag strip type track and start mechanism for Hot Wheels cars. Check out: http://www.dragmasters.net/
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Spawn »

Quite impressive! I like the aspect of making the trigger a gas pedal, and it's interesting to note that the manufacturer has simply gone with the red light triggers a DQ option.

It's interesting to read the features section and read that the racers actually pre-stage just like in actual drag races.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Doug-in-the-woods »

My plan for the June 30th race is each heat consists of each car goes down the 2 lane track in each lane once.
two wins in heat = proceed to next round.
1 win per heat=lowest adverage time advances
a red light then you lose that half of the heat. so if you want to advance you must win the second half of the heat.
so basically you have two chances to advance.
the elimination ladder is formed by the cars having 3 heat races then lowest et races highest et. etc. until winner is determined.
if an odd number of cars the slowest car races a car (cars are numbered ) that is picked from a random drawing.
winner gets to race in eliminations.
the June 30th race has 2 classes = 5-14yrs and 15-85yrs.
stock and A. G. Modified (anything goes "almost"
if a kid wants to race in higher division then fine.
the lower divisions will have a standard start gate (solenoids releast together instead of seperatly)
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Doug-in-the-woods »

start tree works great, the start gates seem to work good.
Going to try out entire system this week after setting up track in bros video store. Kinda like advertising!!
Have a test n tune session say 5 days before the big race on June 30th.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Packdude »

I agree with some of the other posts that using a start gate controlled by the racer would give an unfair advantage to some and would be especially disadvantageous to a cub with any kind of disability. Having a separate race for those boys using a standard starting gate, to me, would not be acceptable.
I like the idea of adding a 'drag racing' feel to the derby and would consider offering it as a pre or post race activity, or even as a separate, special event.
One possibility that I think would be almost as cool would be to have the gates all start together, on the green light, but have the boys sit there with buttons, pedals, whatever, and try to time a green light start. They would get one shot, but since the gate is actually released by a green light, there would be no DQ's or penalties. You could display who started early, on-time, etc. and see who had the fastest reaction time to the green light without starting early.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Paul Taylor »

I just came across this site and hope this interest, of adding reaction time & a red lights to the start gates, leads to the next generation of Pinewood Derby.
I've been running Pinewood Derbys for 20 Cub Packs for the past 12 years and I've upgraded the track to do just that back in 2001. It really keeps the interest of the Scouts having them get involved. As far as reaction time (anticipating the green lamp), I've seen some incredible times from ages 4 and up. I had my doubts at first, but It surprised me how they learn so quickly to anticipate the light. Example, a 4 year old sister of a Cub Scout pulling a reaction time of 00.0004 seconds and a couple of times someone coming up with 00.0000.
I've programmed it so that false starting releases your car as you hit the switch and DQ's the driver whereas they don't get a reaction time, car time and overall time (the sum of the car and reaction times) for that race. It's a 4 lane track in which every one races once in each lane and their fastest time is compared to all the racers. So if a Scout DQ's in one race he knows he has three other chances. They are cautious at first and get more aggressive in their later heats. After checking in, I have them practice on the release switches as the TREE LAMPS sequence. That keeps their attention while others are checking in.
April 5th I will be introducing a change from DQ to a 1/2 second penalty for over reacting. This way the driver will get a reaction time, car time and overall time. I've never had a parent question the harshness of the DQ, but after finally having a scout DQ all 4 of his races recently, I was motivated to make the change. The car could have been the fastest out there, but we'll never know. I chose 00.5000 seconds, since 90% + of the releases are less than that. After one second, all lanes are released if they haven't already done so. For those mentally or physically challenged, the Packs will allow a parent or sibling to help them release their cars. Some Packs will award 1st, 2nd and 3rd for each time (reaction, car and overall) where another will present trophies for the car times only. The car time is that time that the car takes from the activation of the release switch to crossing the finish line. In this case, the scouts have the fun of releasing their cars, but their reaction time doesn't come in to play (todays pinewood timing). I'm hoping this next generation of Pinewood Derby catches on.
If anyone is interested in some of the other features I've added over the years, just let me know.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

Sounds like a great system you've got there Paul.

Any more details about the hardware and electronics involved?
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

Packdude wrote:Having a separate race for those boys using a standard starting gate, to me, would not be acceptable.
Is directly contradicted by:
Packdude wrote:I like the idea of adding a 'drag racing' feel to the derby and would consider offering it as a pre or post race activity, or even as a separate, special event.
One way or another, an event will be held that a disabled person could not participate in.
Can’t plan a group around the least abled person.
Packdude wrote:One possibility that I think would be almost as cool would be to have the gates all start together, on the green light, but have the boys sit there with buttons, pedals, whatever, and try to time a green light start.
Pretty much along the lines of my thinking. Having different categories. The above would probably be good as the starting level (time permitting). Get the participants practicing with the idea of reaction timing from the earliest possible exposure to the event.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Paul Taylor »

SlartyBartFast wrote:Sounds like a great system you've got there Paul.

Any more details about the hardware and electronics involved?

Besides the timing features, I've got all the bells and whistles included, such as background engines idling and revving as the the cars are staged and automatic announcements of each driver and car as they are introduced exp.( Staging in lane 1 driving car number 33 is (pre recorded driver's voice saying his name)). Pictures of the car and then the participant are displayed on a 6' X 8' screen by the computer as they are announced After all 4 lanes are loaded, you then hear the engines rev and as they are released you hear the sounds of dragsters heading toward the finish line. The computer then announces all the results as the results are presented on the screen exp. (car number 7 in lane 2 had the quickest reaction time, car number 18 in lane 3 had the fastest car while car number 28 in lane 1 had the best overall time, car number 2 in lane 4 jumped on it too soon and false started. If a car fails to cross the finish line, you hear a tremendous explosion followed by sirens as a picture of a real dragster on fire at night is automatically displayed on the screen. An announcement stating "Car number _ in lane _ blew its engine, but fortunately was able to walk away from this one". Evert time there is a change in the leader board of the top 4 overall times after a race there is an announcement exp.( holding on to first place is _____ with a time of 4.3256 seconds, jumping into second place is _____, dropping from second to third place is ______, Slipping from third to fourth place is ______).
IR detectors in back of the release gate detect a car being loaded which triggers the stagging announcement for that lane. This continues until the fourth lane is loaded. Yellow LEDS above each lane show that the lanes have been staged. As the participant sees and hears the announcement of his car, he heads down to the release switch for that lane at the end of the track. Once the fourth racer has arrived, the fourth release switch which is prompting the start of the race by flashing on and off- is activated by a Scout leader when he sees all 4 participants are ready.
From this you can see that it runs itself and all that is necessary is to feed the cars as they are announced and also start a sequence of the tree lights by activating the fourth release switch when all 4 scouts are ready. This continues through 4 heats each scout racing once in each heat and once in each lane. The program starts by running the cars in numerical order and then brackets them for the three other heats such that the fastest car in lane 1 will race the fastest car in each of the other lanes, followed by the second fastest racing against each other in the second race and so on. Once I've checked in all participants by taking a picture of their car, a picture of their them, a voice print of them saying their name and removing the flash memory from the camera and plugging it into the computer, I just kick back and let the computer totally run and announce the entire event.
I combined my interest (hobby) of 6510 micro processor machine code and EXCEL 95 MACROS to create this. Granted there are much more sophisticated microprocessors and programs out there, I was limited to my knowledge of these only. The custom built 6510 board takes care of the timing, sensors, switches and displays of all the LEDS and lights. It transfers the data to EXCEL by way of the PS2 port (key board input with a wireless backup should the cable develop an open) at about 10 characters per second. The laptop's Excel program then responds to all the data and commands that the 6510 dictates. It's a one way communication system but it gets the job done nicely. After all the races have completed annoncements are made of the top three leaders of REACTION, CAR and OVERALL times. Of course, there are pages of result date sorted in differnt ways which are copied to a CD as well as all the pictures taken of the participants and their cars and presented to the CUBMASTER to share later with the DENS.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

Wow Paul, sounds great. Lot's of what I've been scheming to do but lack the technical knowhow to accomplish.

So, the does the 6510 do all the timing and the PC the sounds and video control?

How many I/O lines for the controller? I've been wondering if the the timer at http://derbytimer.com/ couldn't be rewired and programmed to take timing events from multiple gates and lane start inputs. Say each input using a oneshot circuit to signal the processor input.

Unfortunately, I'm full of ideas and questions and pretty lacking in specific electronics knowhow.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Paul Taylor »

SlartyBartFast wrote:Wow Paul, sounds great. Lot's of what I've been scheming to do but lack the technical knowhow to accomplish.

So, the does the 6510 do all the timing and the PC the sounds and video control?

How many I/O lines for the controller? I've been wondering if the the timer at http://derbytimer.com/ couldn't be rewired and programmed to take timing events from multiple gates and lane start inputs. Say each input using a oneshot circuit to signal the processor input.
Yes, the 6510 controls the timing, LEDS, Lamps and data transfer to the PC EXCEL which controls the video and sound. The 6510 ckt board incorporates three 6522 chips which uses 44 of the I/O ports.
Not knowing how that timer works, I couldn't say.
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