Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Solenoid start gates make for consistent heat starts.
TAL
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

WOW !!! You guy's are quik with a lot of helpful information....
I have'nt figured out the quote thing yet ( but hopefully we will )....
One thing I can't do is use the electronic remote gate and micro switch by micro wizard together due to the fact the electric gate returns up in 3 seconds and thus being would reset the timer when it closes on the micro switch....
One way would be to use the laser gate with the electric remote gate because as I understand the 3 second returming gate would not effect the laser and timer....
I 'll have to test this process and see the outcome but as for now we are useing the manual paintesio gate and the micro switch by micro wizard which seems to give accurate and consistant times...
WE were shooting for a pretty much hands free race track system but that is looking to be unlikely... Being if using the laser somehow the laser would need to be reset.......(then adjustment issues too)
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by gpraceman »

TAL wrote:I have'nt figured out the quote thing yet ( but hopefully we will )....
Refer to http://derbytalk.com/faq.php?mode=bbcode#4
TAL wrote:One thing I can't do is use the electronic remote gate and micro switch by micro wizard together due to the fact the electric gate returns up in 3 seconds and thus being would reset the timer when it closes on the micro switch....
One way would be to use the laser gate with the electric remote gate because as I understand the 3 second returming gate would not effect the laser and timer....
See if you can try to mount the laser gate so that the start pins break the beam. That would be better than having the first car to get to the beam starting the timing. Dealing with keeping the laser aligned may or may not be a problem.

Too bad the solenoid resets the gate back up; otherwise, you could use the start switch and not have to deal with laser alignment issues.
TAL wrote:Being if using the laser somehow the laser would need to be reset
Since you are using GPRM, GPRM will take care of resetting the laser.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

Right ... The purpose in buying the k-3 timer was to get practice times without having to use the computer and the laser can be reset at the laser system box at starting gate and I believe it will also reset the timer...

But at actual racing for times the computer would be used for documenting the times ... the excellent GPRM soft ware will be an asset to this and can reset the laser ....

Does the reset laser button need to be manually set or will it be at a timed ratio and set to auto pilot ???? If it can be set for auto pilot is the time for settings varible before it resets the laser (and timer)????
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by gpraceman »

TAL wrote:Does the reset laser button need to be manually set or will it be at a timed ratio and set to auto pilot ???? If it can be set for auto pilot is the time for settings varible before it resets the laser (and timer)????
If using GPRM, you will not need to reset the laser yourself, unless you accidentally break the beam after GPRM has already reset it. GPRM will reset the laser and clear the timer display anytime you click on the Start Timer button. If you use the "Hands Free" mode, GPRM will essentially click the Start Timer button for you, after the time delay that you set in the Software Setup screen.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

O.K That sounds great...So the remote tree with the electric gate ,with laser at the gate post and hands free reset on the laser with the computer (or reset button on laser system without computer ) should give me accurate and consistant times using the selonoid.... I'll try it and let you know the out come....


O.K , With the selonoid pulling gate down and holding down for 3 seconds at roughly 15 to 25 second race intevals ; how long before selonoid should heat up enough to cause an inconsistant gate drop????
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by gpraceman »

TAL wrote:O.K , With the selonoid pulling gate down and holding down for 3 seconds at roughly 15 to 25 second race intevals ; how long before selonoid should heat up enough to cause an inconsistant gate drop????
If the start of timing is based on the gate drop, not when the solenoid is activated, then solenoid operation has no bearing on the timing.

I do think you should let John Shreffler know about your timing problems when using his solenoid system in its designed configuration.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

Yea , I spoke with him (JOHN) breifly Sunday on this matter and also have since read some of his topics discussed way earlier along the reference of isolating the systems as I believe you have mentioned on some other topics....
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by John Shreffler »

A couple of points:

The solenoids are DC, triggered by an opto isolator from the green LEDs of the light tree. The 120 VAC is full wave rectified, mildy filtered, and current limited. I test the action by about 1000 cycles (3.0 seconds on, 12.0 seconds off) before shipping. The solenoids get warm, but certainly not hot enough to to make you jerk your finger away.

TAL's system was specially designed to work with the MW K3, using either the microswitch or the laser gate. The laser gate is completely independent, whereas the microswitch is not usable in the present configuration for the reasons stated.

The anecdotal evidence does make me want to make some objective tests on delays possibly caused by solenoid temperature. I will set up a timer to look at the time delay from the start of the green to the opening of a magnetic switch mounted on a gate, and report back to this forum on my findings. I certainly don't want to be selling a product that causes time growth due to solenoid temperature. If it turns out that there is a systematic problem, I will re-design for independent start sensing.

In the meantime, I do agree with Randy that until things get clarified, the independent start switch is a better idea. I can rework the control box on TAL's system so that the Microwizard's start switch can also work with this sytem.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

John Shreffler wrote:TAL's system was specially designed to work with the MW K3, using either the microswitch or the laser gate. The laser gate is completely independent, whereas the microswitch is not usable in the present configuration for the reasons stated.
John, I didn't realize that YOU had custom designed the rig for TAL ... knowing that I wouldn't have even questioned if AC was used for the solenoids, etc! :)

Variables?
Heat-related variations in flux density.
Current availability from "lightly filtered power supply", possibly with a large capacitor not reaching full charge during short cycles.
Heat-related variations in solenoid friction.
Most of us wouldn't be able to assess those, but I bet you can! :)
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by John Shreffler »

The capacitor is right on the output of the full wave bridge, so there is no delay in charging. It is really only there for the "pic" (initial wammy) because a solenoid's force is minimum when extended.

I will be looking primarily for the temperature effects.

There is also a possibility of hinge binding. When the gate is screwed down tight to the track, there might be some warpage transmitted. The fix is to back out the screws on the hinge just slightly, and retighten them. With the spring disconnected, there should be absolutely no binding discernable in the action.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

Sounds really solid, John ... as we would expect :)
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

HEY GUY'S , We took the track and timer, starting gates, and switch's and had our self's a great time today, (WE HAD A RACE) a 44 heat bsa stock race , 84 heat open class ,and a 6 heat BOUNTY CAR RACE ... The guy's at the shop were absolutely blown away with the system ....
The light tree and electric gate were very impressive and very fun for practice runs this mourning .... But seeing the increasing times I was not confortable with it for the race so we went to the micro switch and manual gate for the actual race ...
Just wanted to mention to JOHN ,you do excellent craftsman ship and seem to know your products very well.... I'm sure your doing all you can ...
This might help ; I tried the hinge swing and all seems to do well and swing freely on and off of the track... when gate is on the track and we take the spring off the starting pins always fall freely ...
And far as heat ,the selonoid as never gotten more than warm...actually it does'nt get any warmer when the times are increasing ...
You say the tree activates the selonoid and you also mention a magnet....
WHAT ACTUALLY STARTS THE TIMER ????
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by John Shreffler »

Your K3 timer starts timing when the red and yellow wires in the phone line (common to both microswitch and laser) are high with respect to the green wire (ground). In the case of the laser gate, all four lines are used, and in the case of the microswitch, only the red and green are used. When the red green are shorted, the timer is reset, and when it opens, the timing begins. In your particular system, the red-green are shorted by a FET inside my black box, after going through a cross-coupled DPDT switch so polarity is not an issue. The unshorting is immediate via diode, and the return to short condition is by use of an RC timing circuit. The delay is necessary to let all cars reach the finish line. Remember, the K3's microswitch is designed to function only with starting gates that stay open once the race starts.

The fix you want is to put that delay timing function in the little plastic phone jack enclosure provided with the microswitch. Send that part to me, and I will install.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by John Shreffler »

Results of Solenoid Testing

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to make sure I had good data on this important issue.

I set up a 2 lane BestTrack single solenoid start gate, using standard spring tension to hold back two 5.0 ounce cars at a 28 degree angle. All testing was done with the track inverted and horizontal, since actual run times were not the issue. The gate was driven by a light tree (green light switches power to the gate through an optoisolator). A 6 digit, 10 microsecond resolution, crystal controlled LCD timer was interfaced appropriately to start on the application of the green light, and latch upon the opening of a magnetic switch attached to the hinge/peg assembly. The latent time for opening of the magnetic switch is assumed to be a constant. The readings obtained will be called the Delay. The cycling time allowed for a test every 10 seconds, and the solenoid and dropping resistors soon heated up. I made many runs of 40 tests, allowing 3 hours of cooling in between each run. Each run started off at room temperature.

Conclusions:

1. The average Delay, when cool, was about 56 milliseconds, with a typical variation of 3.6 milliseconds. I find this variation unacceptable,

2. There is definitely a temperature effect. By the end of the run, the Delay had grown to about 63 milliseconds average, This is even more unacceptable.

3, I increased the capacitor by a factor of six, to drive more energy into the solenoid when it was fully extended, and needed power the most. This helped the reaction time significantly, and improved the variation. However, the Delay continued to increase at about the same rate as before, as the run progressed. I cannot attribute this to anything except temperature.

4. As a result of these tests, I am convinced the design, while ok for finishing order racing, is not adequate to support timed racing. I have taken immediate steps to redesign using an independent switch for the starting event. This is for both The Judge, and for any other finish line that I am interfacing with.

5. I am in business to provide the best in timing equipment, and it looks like was a little hasty in this new offering. I thank TAL for bringing this issue to my attention, and will modify his system at no cost to make the microswitch start of his Microwizard K3 timer compatible.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by gpraceman »

A good piece of detective work John. I am glad to see that you have found the cause of the problem and I know you will strive to eliminate it.
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