Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Solenoid start gates make for consistent heat starts.
TAL
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Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

HELLO.....We recently purchased a 2 lane 40' pantisio aluminum track and it is a really great track ... We also purchased a fast track micro wizard k-3 grandprix package with grandprix soft ware.....All this seems to be working really well....We also purchased the remote start tree and a 2 lane electronic remote control starting gate with the silanoid from the judge....

We have noticed that when we run a car consistantly in one or both lanes that the first run is always the fastest....

For example ; car1 in lane 1 ,makes 4 runs back to back in the same lane and each time the cars time is getting slower and slower by half second or 3/4 second right on up to about a second slower in the 4 different runs....But yet we can take the same car in the same lane and do nothing to the car except wait approximately2 or 3 minutes and then it will do a fast time again and then get a slower time on each of these 4 runs...

When running 2 cars in 2 different lanes THE RESULTS for FIRST AND SECOND PLACE ARE CONSISTANT ,BUT THE TIMES FOR BOTH CARS ARE GETTING SLOWER EACH RUN

The remote tree sends signal to the blackbox that activates the silanoid and starts the timer ....It is a very neat and nice item but is it consistant?
TAL
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

CORRECTION ON TIME DIFFERENCE ;
EXAMPLE ; 2.998
3.034
3.089
3.134
WAIT 4 MINUTES AND THEN DONE 4 MORE RUNS IN SAME LANE WITH SAME CAR UNDESTURBED ;

3.008
3.045
3.098
3.119

THE DIFFERENCE IS TENTH'S INSTEAD OF HALVES AS I STATED .
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

Wow! Good work! It would be sad to discover that problem in the middle of a big race!

Sounds like a "heat related" issue ... ameliorates with cooling. Component cooling may take several minutes to take effect.

Could also be related to solenoid power supply regulation ... but that would be really unusual ... to require minutes to recharge fully. Regulation issues are more likely measured in milliseconds.

How to isolate the culprit? Are you able to measure solenoid voltage, current and temperature? Are you able to temporarily eliminate some of the components, such as the tree? Are you able to speed up and extend the duration of the testing cycle? e.g. run every 5 to 10 seconds and 10 or 20 runs per car?
Stan
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

HEY STAN HAPPY YOU REPLIED ....... I really think this issue could cause unfair results especially in a average time race....Especially if only one or two people new about the system and caused slight delays(cool off time) when a preffered associate is on the starting gate........

Like I say waiting 4 or 5 minutes results in again a better run time , wether it's 4 or 5 minutes or two hours it starts increasing the run times at about roughly 0.010 to 0.025 intevals for about the first 10 to 14 runs then starts fluxuating .... for example a car that runs a 3.008 on the first run is running a 3.133 after about 10 to 14 runs at about 20 to 25 second intevals...
Far as power supply the tree is running on 3 aa batteries and the selonoid is on 120v ( 14gauge 50 foot drop cord )... Could either of these be the problem?...
As for the heat check the selonoid is able to be layed hands on and is on the warm side.... The tree is remote controled and far as I know is the only way to activate the selonoid ( the tree is activated and takes appromatly 4 or 5 seconds to send the signal to the black box which then the black box activates the selonoid)... As for which starts the clock in the black box I really don't know... It is a system made by the judge (JOHN)....
When signals are received the gate opens and then closes in about 3 seconds and when all times are recieved the blackbox resets the timer in 12 to 14 seconds and is then ready to remote the tree again for another run ...so 5 seconds for tree , 3 seconds for the run and 14 seconds for timer to reset is about fastest we can do the runs...
We did wrap a icecube in a paper towel and taped it to the selonoid but yet it still increased times as we run but not as big of intevals but yet did still increase.........
And if we wait a minute between runs the times don't increase as much by still increase...

[/quote]
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Mr. Slick »

A step up from ice cubes would be to get a can of "electronics freeze" at a computer store. It is used to spray on the components to keep them cold/cool for trouble shooting sometimes. Even things like dust off cnned air can keep things cool.

Is there an option to power things without the batteries? What type of batteries have you tried?
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

TAL wrote:HEY STAN HAPPY YOU REPLIED ....... I really think this issue could cause unfair results especially in a average time race....Especially if only one or two people new about the system and caused slight delays(cool off time) when a preffered associate is on the starting gate........
This shows good understanding of the difference between fairness and accuracy! Good work!
TAL wrote:Far as power supply the tree is running on 3 aa batteries and the selonoid is on 120v ( 14gauge 50 foot drop cord )... Could either of these be the problem?...
If the solenoid operates on 60Hz AC, then you can expect up to 1/60 th or 1/120 th second variance in times. If the supply voltage is rectified (half wave rectification) then the random variance is 1/60 th sec! If the solenoid is driven by rectified and filtered (more-or-less pure DC), then the variance should disappear. I'd expect the solenoid to run operate on DC, but ...
TAL wrote:As for the heat check the selonoid is able to be layed hands on and is on the warm side....

A little warm is not unusual, if you can actually lay your hands on it, I'd feel okay about solenoid temp.
TAL wrote:When signals are received the gate opens and then closes in about 3 seconds

This sounds strange ... does the solenoid "open the gate" or "release a latch that holds the gate closed?" Tell us the details of its operation!
TAL wrote:We did wrap a icecube in a paper towel and taped it to the selonoid but yet it still increased times as we run but not as big of intevals but yet did still increase.........
This is consistent with the "laying on of hands" observation above! I've had little success healing electronics using that technique, but your results may vary. :)
Stan
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

HEY MR. SLICK ...The ICE CUBE thing was just a curious ideal before we proceeded further or maybe a small fan of some kind...but the electronics freeze ,how long would it last before another fix would be required and what would be the long term effects on the RENCENTLY NEW SELONOID...
For the AA batteries for the tree we are using 3 AA alkaline batteries... The tree is pretty much the receiver for the remote control that activates the signal to the black box where the power cord (HOUSE CURRENT) junctions in for the power source for the selonoid...

And HEY STAN ...Far as for the selonoid, actually it opens (pulls) the gate down and holds it down for 3 seconds and then stops pulling and a spring actually pulls the gate back up to its place and while the spring is pulling the gate back up it also pulls the released seloniod back out...
The spring that pulls the gate and selonoid back to position has only enough tension to do the job it is designed for ....
It's a really neat system BUT
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Mr. Slick »

The coolant is just for diagnostics, to see if temperature is a factor. I would not recommend it for an actual race event.

If temperature is a problem then the a fan from an old pc may be the solution. . . or just have races outside in the winter. :D That would be a true Minnesotan solution :lol: just watch out for ice build up!

It sounds like the start trigger for the timer is coming from either the tree or the solenoid. Do you have the MicroWizard's laser or micro switch that could be used to trigger the timer? This could eliminate the tree/start solenoid from the time variance.
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TAL
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

Mr . Slick The system was build by the judge and was modified to use with the micro wizard and elimanate the micro switch and the laser system that comes with the k3 grand prix package and have a remote control (wireless ) starting gate ...
That's actually what we did today was hooked up the micro switch that came with the micro wizard and every thing works great with accurate and consistant times...
The electronic selonoid and remote tree would probably be alright running elimanation races but you don't get accurate times which would be a problem if you had a tie and wanted to determine the winner by times...
BOTTOM LINE ARE ALL SELONOIDS THIS INACCURATE ????????
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

A 5 oz car puts a force of about 2.5 oz on the starting pin ... so a "full line of cars" caould go 10 to 15 oz trying to push the gate open. That means that the spring holding it closed must be pretty strong ... and the solenoid must overcome that torque as well as jerk against the starting gate inertia. With those forces I'd expect some variances, but not a steadily increasing time.

If it were mine, I'd rework it to have the tree operate the solenoid, and interface the timer to the start gate using a normal microswitch ... just as though there were no solenoid.

Even so, I can see some variances in the speed with which the start gate is opened. And that will introduce time variances.

As for the main source of time growth ... I'm betting that the fact that the solenoid is energized for 3+ seconds each time is creating heat and maybe some other magnetic issues that affect the solenoid's response time.

The other thing I'd do is energize a solenoid to CLOSE the gate, allowing the spring to open it when the main solenoid operates a simple latch. This puts the heavily loaded solenoid operating during a non-time-critical part of the cycle!

Oh, what did you find out about the power at the solenoid terminals ... AC, DC, or filtered DC?
Stan
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

Stan , the system has a 2 prong A/C cord ... The 2 power options at purchase are 120VAC or 12VDC....
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

TAL wrote:Stan , the system has a 2 prong A/C cord ... The 2 power options at purchase are 120VAC or 12VDC....
Yup! But, it has a low power, low voltage input to trigger it, circuitry inside to use the trigger to control the solenoid, possibly a relay or SCR, timing circuitry to control the 3+ second delay, and it likely has some other components inside that could do the conversion to DC or filtered DC.

The fact that it can be ordered in either a 12VDC or 120VAC configuration suggests that it runs the solenoid at 12VDC and so, should not suffer any AC timing ills. The 120VAC option would just have a 12V power supply in there!
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by TAL »

Would you be suggesting the 12VDC to be the better power system ????

If so would a 14 volt 10 amp power supply be an adequate power source.... we have a couple of them here for the dc chargers for our RC 1/10 scale trucks ....(radio controlled trucks ) .... we also have a 12 volt 5 amp power supply ... Both of these power supplies are A/C powered and convert it to D/C power ... Would either of these be a good source of power (better than A/C???)...
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by gpraceman »

TAL wrote:The system was build by the judge and was modified to use with the micro wizard and elimanate the micro switch and the laser system that comes with the k3 grand prix package and have a remote control (wireless ) starting gate ...
Personally, I feel that the signal to trigger the solenoid should NOT be the signal to start the timing. Each device should be able to operate independently. The timer should use its own start switch as the signal to start the timing so any inconsistancy in the speed of the solenoid opening the gate will not affect times.
TAL wrote:That's actually what we did today was hooked up the micro switch that came with the micro wizard and every thing works great with accurate and consistant times...
If you can use MicroWizard start switch and still use the solenoid to open the gate, then I would recommend that you stick with that arrangement.
TAL wrote:BOTTOM LINE ARE ALL SELONOIDS THIS INACCURATE ????????
No. I believe the inaccuracy is being introduced by trying to use the signal for activating the solenoid as the even to start timing. If there are any variations in how long it takes in actually dropping the gate, then these will show up in the times. I don't believe it is really a solenoid problem, just a problem in what is being used as the event to start timing.
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Re: Is a starting gate silanoid inconsistant?

Post by Stan Pope »

TAL wrote:Would you be suggesting the 12VDC to be the better power system ????
No! Just concluding that the solenoid is probably actuated by filtered DC already, as I think it should be!

I think Randy has the right solution ... let the solenoid open the gate, and let the gate opening start the clock in the same way you proved it to be accurate.
Stan
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