start gate help

Solenoid start gates make for consistent heat starts.
cubmaster89
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:38 am

start gate help

Post by cubmaster89 »

i am building a start gate and was wondering if someone could help me. I am using the GrandPrix Race Manager software.

I was wondering if I could use a 5v relay to activate the 24vdc soleniod.

also if anyone can tell me. Does the computer supply the 5v or apply a ground.


any help would be app.

russsanchez@juno.com

Thank you
Russ Sanchez
cubmaster pack89
Driver VA
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by gpraceman »

cubmaster89 wrote:i am building a start gate and was wondering if someone could help me. I am using the GrandPrix Race Manager software.

I was wondering if I could use a 5v relay to activate the 24vdc soleniod.

also if anyone can tell me. Does the computer supply the 5v or apply a ground.
A good place for information on buliding a solenoid start gate is at http://grandprix-race-central.com/start_gate.htm
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
SteveJahr
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Granite Bay, CA.

Re: start gate help

Post by SteveJahr »

I gotta ask:

Why add a solenoid?

You can achieve the objective of consistent race starts without the complexity or cost of a solenoid starting gate. Just make the gate sprung open and latch it shut. Release the latch and rock.

If you want, you can check out the start gate I built for my track in the track section under 'inexpensive PWD track' or something like that :)

The only reason I can see for adding a solenoid is integration into a software race program. And even that seems dubious as most of the critical coordination happens on the track. So launch decisions seem like they should be on the track too.
User avatar
Watch-out-for-that-frog
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:13 pm
Location: La Canada California

Re: start gate help

Post by Watch-out-for-that-frog »

I gotta ask:

Why add a solenoid?
Because its cool! :roll:

I want to make a start "switch" to trigger the solenoid reason is, I want the boys to start the race. With no fuss over who gets to start it! So I am going to build a six button start box that way I can have my 6 racers for my six lane track stand along the track (best viewing spot) and be active in starting their race. My idea is to have the start box independent of the software and have the "Laser" start "triger" the software not the solenoid. FOR MORE WOWIE KAZOWIE I'am an active part in this race factor by the boys! :shock:
Last edited by Watch-out-for-that-frog on Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smooth Sailing,
Karlton
Former Pack Master of Pinewood Disaster
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by gpraceman »

SteveJahr wrote:So launch decisions seem like they should be on the track too.
It doesn't have to be triggered by software. There can be a remote button that the start gate operator can push to trigger the solenoid so they would be less likely to inadvertently jostle the track. Even better, would be to give the button to one of the racers to start the heat. They would think that is cool!
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by Stan Pope »

Watch-out-for-that-frog wrote:reason is, I want the boys to start the race. With no fuss over who gets to start it! So I am going to build a six button start box that way I can have my 6 racers for my six lane track stand along the track (best viewing spot) and be active in starting their race.
Congratulations! You are basing your design on the most important people at the race!

As I see, you have alternatives ...
1. Each active lane must get a "go" from the driver at the same time. Last "go" releases the start gate, but if someone has pressed and released his "go" in the meantime, it won't trigger. This means that the go buttons are wired in series with buttons for unoccupied lanes locked closed. Or, a 6 input AND gate.
2. Each active lane must get a "go" from the driver. Switch remembers that "go" has been signaled. Latched 6 input AND gate.

Dealing with unoccupied lanes will complicate the electronics, but it should be workable.

You might want the go-button "reset" to be activated by the starter when he signals that the racers are staged and ready for the racers to release them. This means that the starter must signal that the racers are ready before the racers can use their "go" buttons.

And then, there are some variations ...

3. The r-th button pressed activates the gate (whre r is randomly assigned for each heat) to prevent each racer from wanting to be the last to push his button.

4. ... surely there are some more :)
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
Watch-out-for-that-frog
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:13 pm
Location: La Canada California

Re: start gate help

Post by Watch-out-for-that-frog »

K.i.s.s. is always best. Six buttons all normal OPEN with a "Jumper switch" to a "closed position" for each lane. That is if the "arm lane switch" With BIG RED LIGHT is set to empty it will be set to a CLOSED circut state. Thus when the starter counts down 3..2...1... START they all press their start button and away they go! I can wire in a horn and green lights if I really want to get fancy.. Whoops K.I.S.S. just kicked in...

The empty lanes if there are any will already be "closed" by the empty lane switch so the last to press the button will really be the starter, they will all have to hold down their button until the race is under way. Knowing little boys that is when they start to JUMP and SHout anyways! The NERVES before the start will keep the buttons pressed until they are under way ;) :wink: For the ARM track a simple switch will do to ARM the buttons. THE BOYS need to learn to listen to an official so lets get a lesson in here if we can.
Smooth Sailing,
Karlton
Former Pack Master of Pinewood Disaster
Slotown
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: start gate help

Post by Slotown »

OK I built the start gate timer per the GPRM web link posted on their web page. The web page schematic shows either a DB9 or DB25 connector option. I went with the DB9 and now realize that it runs through the GPRM uses a the parallel port (DB25). My question is without rebuilding the starter can I uses a gender changer on one end of my serial cable??
Jeff Bittel
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by gpraceman »

Slotown wrote:OK I built the start gate timer per the GPRM web link posted on their web page. The web page schematic shows either a DB9 or DB25 connector option. I went with the DB9 and now realize that it runs through the GPRM uses a the parallel port (DB25). My question is without rebuilding the starter can I uses a gender changer on one end of my serial cable??
First, did you apply the circuit modifications listed at http://grandprix-race-central.com/modul ... page&pid=8? You need these completed so GPRM can work with the circuit on the parallel port. The original circuit was designed for use on the serial port.

If you have it wired to pins 4 and 5 on the DB9 connector, like on the original plans, I am not sure that a gender changer will get them on the correct parallel port pins. Pin 4 would have to go to any of the pins between 2 - 9 and Pin 5 would need to go to any of the pins from 18 - 25.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Slotown
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: start gate help

Post by Slotown »

Thanks Randy for the quick reply. After reading the modifications I'm not sure I want to go that route due to the very short cable run length for a parallel connection. I'm using the Daytona timer with USB so that keeps my computer at the finish line end of the track.

Using the original plans I think I should still be able to open the actuate the solenoid using the S or G key on the computer keyboard which should still get me the same results. But now my question is how should I set up the hyper terminal to activate the solenoid.
Jeff Bittel
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by gpraceman »

Slotown wrote:Using the original plans I think I should still be able to open the actuate the solenoid using the S or G key on the computer keyboard which should still get me the same results. But now my question is how should I set up the hyper terminal to activate the solenoid.
Well, it doesn't quite work that way with that circuit. All the circuit is expecting is a simple binary signal to the MOSFET (ON or OFF, ON in this case). For the parallel port, this ON signal is about 5V and I forgot how much it is for the serial port but it is higher (I think it is about 12V). The trigger voltage of the MOSFET that you use is what decides the actual voltage needed to switch the solenoid on. There is no part of that circuit to receive a computer command and has the intelligence to then figure out what to do from there. That would be a much more complicated circuit.

I have heard from GPRM users that were able to use cables up to 50ft long with the parallel port, so you may want to go ahead and make the necessary circuit modifications.

Note: If you are using a parallel port sensor system for the timing, you need to keep the solenoid circuit isolated from it so there will not be any interference with the finish line sensor and start switch signals.

At a minimum, install the manual switch (S1 in the below diagram) into the circuit. You can make the cables to the switch long enough to reach to your computer and then the computer operator can ready GPRM and then use the switch to trip the solenoid. Make sure that the switch is rated up to the max current of your solenoid.

Image
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Slotown
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: start gate help

Post by Slotown »

I will have to ponder this for awhile. I'm not an electronics circuit board expert. I sent the original schematic to my father before I received GPRM and realized that a mod was required to make it work with the GPRM software. I'm not real sure which circuits/diodes/etc need to be cut out of the original build and which new ones need to be installed.
Jeff Bittel
Slotown
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: start gate help

Post by Slotown »

Another item to ponder is that a lot of new computers are now shipping without a parallel and serial ports. Eventually makers of race software need to step up to the new hardware configurations.
Jeff Bittel
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by gpraceman »

Slotown wrote:Another item to ponder is that a lot of new computers are now shipping without a parallel and serial ports. Eventually makers of race software need to step up to the new hardware configurations.
Eventually. You will still need to have some type of an adapter to connect your PC to the start gate. That adapter will still likely need some software driver installed for it to be used with the PC. It all ends up being rather complicated and more prone to problems than using a regular serial or parallel port. That is not to say that it shouldn't (or won't) be attempted.

Until then, there are also adapters on the market, like this one, that can be used with computers that do not have a parallel or serial port.

http://www.keyspan.com/products/usb/mpr/

There are also USB adapters specifically for the serial port and parallel port. However, for those with a serial timer, using a USB to Serial adapter will limit cable lenght to 15 ft, so the computer will need to be down by the timer.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
User avatar
mrvoltz
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:51 pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Contact:

Re: start gate help

Post by mrvoltz »

First of all, the serial port is only 5 V also.
What finishline circuit did you have your father build, the parrellel one on Randy's site? If so the only "change" that is required is a connection to pin 2 and ground to the solenoid mosfet circuit and set the software for solenoid start gate instead of switch. I include this modification in the design of my circuit so when the time comes I just flip a switch changing the pin used and use the same wiring to control either option.
And Randy is right, I have previously run a parrellel cable over 60'.
Post Reply